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1/12/2015 2:10:11 AM
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Saying Yor and ward are the same person just doesn't add up.
In Thorn 1. The man Held a "Rose" (Presumably a Gun) which turned into Thorn.
In Last Word 3. Jaren Ward held The Last Word right up untill hos Death. Shin evenstates that he hears it fire off and then hears a much "darker" shot, assumedly from Thorn.
Keep in mind that in Thorn 2, Yor murders 3 people with Thorn. These three people are mentioned in Last Word 3, Shin states that their death had everyone on edge, even explicitly stating they were gunned down.
I belirve that Jaren, being an amazing hunter that was looked up to, was chosen to lead a fire team in hunting down Dredgen Yor. When Yor murdered three of his team, he went off to confront Yor on his own ("probably because he didn't want to see any more dead kids").
Jaren lost the duel and died there.
His body and Ghost was soon found by Shin, and the Ghost spoke to Shin, implying that Jaren is dead because the ghost never spoke to anyone but Jaren.
Shin then inherits Last Word and uses it to kill Yor.
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Saying that his ghost survived but he died wouldn't make sense either as the ghost is able to reconstitute dead guardians. Weapons of sorrow can drain the light of the ghosts and prevent the reviving process. If you read the thorn 1 it says he stole the weapon, and that he considers it a rose but doesn't say he uses it. It whispered to him from his possessions until he finally gave in and became Yor. Who else could Yor be if not Ward and why would Ward be referenced in thorn 2 as "associated" if he wasn't involved in the transcript actively? In thorn 1 it says the great man (who left inspired hope in all those left in his wake) walked off on his own at dusk and as the night progressed he finally transformed so as not to tarnish his legend and beat the weight of what was to come as a new entity without connection to his past. In TLW 3 it states they woke up during the night and Ward was gone with only his ghost and gun remaining. While I can see your points, I feel there is a stronger case for Ward actually being Yor. You don't have to agree, the lore is vague and we can each believe as we choose to.
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Edited by Baumguy: 1/12/2015 7:31:43 PMI'd like to point out that he was associated with it in Thorn 2 because they were in the City of Palamon, where Jaren lived, and that he later went after Yor for vengeance. After Dredgen Yor killed those three men, and supposedly razed Palamon to the ground (it mentioned Jaren and his "team" turning their backs on Palamon's ashes), Jaren grouped up with survivors from the city and went after Yor, looking to take the fight to him. Plus, Jaren wielded Last Word, not the Rose. And Last Word still existed after Thorn, so Last Word literally cannot be Thorn. Not to mention that the entire tragedy of Dredgen Yor was that his last comfort would be that people would remember him as he was before the transformation, and that they wouldn't remember him for the sufferings he'd cause. I think it's more tragic that we never get a glimpse of who he was before. All we ever hear about it Yor. And the reason Jaren's Ghost didn't revive him is because Yor presumably drained all of Jaren's Light, like he did to the "cliché bandit" and his three friends in that bar in Palamon. Ghosts can only revive people if they have traces of the Traveler's Light in them. There's just too many instances of Ward and Yor being at the same place at the same time. They're two different men, with two different weapons. Plus, Ward had literally no motivation to suddenly give into darkness; if anything, those "dead kids" would make him fight to save them even more before ending himself randomly in the woods one night. Go reread all of the Ghost Fragments for Last Word and Thorn, you get some blew information in Last Word 3 from The Dark Below that really nixes and chance of them being the same person.
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Edited by OriginalHarmz: 1/12/2015 8:56:04 PMYou also make a point of mine; Ward wanted his noble and righteous name to remain untainted by the acts he would later commit as Yor. What better way to make sure that happens than to pretend you're dead? If he was famous enough that his memory mattered; we would know about him. Remember Darth Vader "killed" Anakin Skywalker.
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When do Jaren and Dredgen ever get mentioned being at the same place aside from simple associations? Palamons ashes refers to the ruined city once the despot Loken was killed by Ward. Dredgen Yor was hunted for killing Pahanin Errata, not the guys in the bar. Why would Shin Malphur say "Your's not mine" to Dredgen when he didn't even know the reference to begin with? I never claimed thorn came from TLW; I said that Jaren came in possession of the Thorn (a Rose as he first saw it) on the moon before being corrupted by it slowly. When you do the Thorn bounty you never actually use the weapon but it still mentions it whispering to you; trying to corrupt you before the cleansing. We don't know of any other historical men who could have transformed into such a formidable hunter, Ward was the greatest ever and Yor dethroned the greatest crucible champion ever.
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Guardians can't be revived unless a teammate is there. And if a teammate takes too long to be revived they're lost for good. Shin waited hours where Jaren "supposedly" died and then the ghost started the hunt for a guardian again. And Shin was just a boy adopted by Jaren and coincidentally he had the potential to be a guardian also.
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I would be hesitant to make the claim that they cannot be revived without a teammate - we revive all of the time without them in non-darkness zones. The Ghost grimoire card even states they can save a guardian from death under the right circumstances (ie no darkness). This begs the question what causes a darkness zone? Could Dredgen Yor create a darkness zone with his weapon of sorrow that did not also damage the ghost? The story is too ambiguous to say anything for certain I suppose, I still choose to believe Yor and Ward are the same individual.
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Yeah it's all extremely vague. Why didn't Jaren kill his own ghost? Why didn't he take out his teammates? Where would he keep Thorn? Why would he take his teammates only to abandon them and switch over to the darkness? What is this Rose that Yor carries? I still think Jaren and Yor are two different people. But you know what? Agree to disagree.
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Wards last act as a noble man was to preserve his memory before being consumed by the darkness. The Thorn grimoire even states that as a fact for whomever transformed into Yor. He wasn't evil until he transformed and was far enough away that it wouldn't make a difference. He had created a bond with Shin so his ghost would find him to take up his mantle. Shin states the first time he picked up TLW "unfortunately it wasn't the last time" this could be remorseful regarding Wards death or because he ultimately had to kill him. Also he used the line "your's not mine" as he killed Yor; this could be a revenge statement for Ward or a nod to let Yor know his secret identity. Yor was hunted down by Shin for killing Pahanin, not Ward, as the lore tells us he reigned over the crucible until he killed him. I'm always drawn back to the connection being the "associations" in Thorn fragment 2. Why are Ward, Jaren; Yor, Dredgen; Malphur, Shin; Last Word, and Thorn and not Pahanin, any of the other members of their 9 comrades on the expedition? I believe it is due to the connection of Ward/Yor to Thorn, and Malphur/Ward to TLW with palamon being referenced as it is their common thread of meeting. As you said; agree to disagree.
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Edited by John6Max4: 1/12/2015 12:10:06 PMThere's an equal 50/50 split of either side of the story but what I do like about the Ward/Yor theory is Shin wasn't saying "your last word Yor, not mine". Instead he was saying "this is your gun Jaren, not mine".
