I have both of those weapons, but i refuse to use them in pvp. I prefer using weapons that require a little more of a challenge for pvp, such as Thorn. Long-ass reload speed and small mag, yet i can still go 30 kills and top the leaderboard. You can keep your nublet crucible weps, ill stick to skill. Keep saying that trash mobs dont matter. Ill bet that youve been killed more by a "bullshit" trash mob potshot than by anything else. Fact is, you dont notice how valuable it is to have someone who can quickly deal with the small fry, not until theyre carving through those insignificant trash mobs that you ignored to come pick your dead self up. Every weapon has its uses. I have had yet to find a weapon that i cannot find a use for in this game.