My first attempt was with a group of randoms, but 5 of us had never played, and one had. The one who had was helping his friend out, and I was one of the 4 extras invited along. We beat it legitimately, and it was fun as hell, and only took a couple hours with a few deaths here and there. Then I've ended up joining groups who had the warlocks go off to cheese Atheon while I held the shield, because as a Hunter, I had nothing I should be doing because I was otherwise worthless. Now, at the time, yeah, I was all for it, because I had already beaten the raid on normal and hard with pretty much no reward for it (except for my recent normal run which finally gave me a piece of raid gear and the exotic I wanted). All the times I've been in a group to push him off, it was on hard runs. I've gotten nothing but ships and shards from hard runs, regardless of whether we pushed him off or not. I'd rather know I'm getting shit on by the game now instead of possibly grueling through an hour of frustration to then have that added on top. Now, I welcome the change coming up. Well, the baby bumpers. I'm still unsure about the three random people being teleported instead of the back three.