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Edited by Eternity:
10/16/2014 10:37:35 PM
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From my perspective it was poor game design on Bungie's part that they didn't realise players would cheese the boss in that manner from the beginning. The fact that the platforms are close enough to jump on (and can be chain jumped to get to further platforms) seems to indicate that Bungie wasn't opposed to the idea of players using them somewhat (perhaps a way to give a sniper player a decent spot, not entirely without its own dangers) - but they failed to anticipate 6 players hiding on one platform and cheesing the boss from there.
Say whatever you want about strategy and creativity. It is fundamentally a cheese strategy. And because Bungie failed to foresee it, they've now had to implement an extremely simple fix to stop it, which has other less desirable consequences (now the platforms can't be used for anything).
There are some great suggestions in this thread about ways in which the Templar could have dealt with the players using this platform, like having the Templar teleport players on platforms back into random locations in the main arena whenever he is hit by the shield, or having enemies spawn all over the platforms, or having the Templar able to spawn at adjacent platforms - all of these require time however, something Bungie doesn't have.
I can't wait to see the wailing about Bungie stifling people's 'creativity' and 'strategy' when they patch Atheon so he doesn't fall off the edge...
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Edited by BrokenLance: 10/16/2014 10:47:39 PMimo if they want us to complete their content a certain way they should just show us, not give us a raid and say "here, find a way to win." because they clearly want us to do it their way. So now we get hotfixes that waste valuable development time and upset players. You can't claim to take the Dark Souls approach and then try to stop players from cheesing. Hell, Dark Souls' hardest battles can be cheesed many different ways. Bungie can fix any encounter they want, but it continues to send the message 'we are only pretending to encourage creativity, really we want you to do this a certain way." which again, keeps wasting dev time that could be spent on content chasing after players and the zillions of exploits they can and will find.
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I agree to an extent - personally I thought it was pretty obvious the first time I was doing the raid that the main platform was where it was at for the Templar fight. I only discovered the side platform cheese via these forums and a few youtube videos in week 3. As for Dark Souls, I don't believe Bungie have ever made any reference to the game, or it's style of gameplay. The raid is the most over-designed piece of content that Bungie have ever created - every single aspect of it is intended to be played in a very specific manner (or perhaps in a number of very specific manners) - which is why I'm a bit dumbfounded that Bungie didn't realise players would cheese it from a side platform. Another good example of a raid challenge which probably isn't working as intended is the jumping puzzle. Currently every class can easily jump to the other side after getting onto only 2 or 3 vanishing platforms, rather than completing the sequence of platforms all the way down (which would be a good deal harder). This one is a little less clear though - there is no functional purpose to the bit of platform sticking out on the bottom that players jump onto, so surely Bungie must have intended that players could jump down there, right? It's hard to tell - but I wouldn't actually be surprised if in another future patch Bungie removed that bit of side platform you can jump down onto. So I guess to boil it down, I have 2 problems with the side platforms in the Templar fight and the subsequent fix: 1) They didn't foresee it while developing the instance - if they had, they would have come up with a much more clever way to deal with it and we would still be able to use the platforms for parts of the fight (or have the option to at least). Instead we have a knee-jerk reaction hot-fix that reduces the possibilities for the fight. HOWEVER, I completely agree with the sentiment that it shouldn't be possible to cheese the boss, in any manner. 2) There are more pressing issues with the raid that need fixing desperately, which are ruining the game more and more every moment they are left unpatched. Namely save sharing and cheesing Atheon. One simple adjustment to save sharing they could make is that if you finish the raid, you lose your Atheon checkpoint. As it stands, people can finish the raid, and are left with an Atheon checkpoint, so are more than happy to share it around. Another simple adjustment would be for the save share to only work if the player being shared with has already cleared content up to that point. e.g. Player 1 has an Atheon checkpoint, Player 2 hasn't started the raid. Player 2 can join Player 1's game from Atheon (and kill him if they go for it), but if Player 2 leaves the game, he will not receive/keep an Atheon checkpoint, as he hasn't cleared the previous checkpoints. As for the Atheon cheese, well that just needs to go ASAP - I suspect the fix will be quick and nasty, much like the sniper platform fix (i.e. he teleports back to the centre whenever he is knocked off anywhere).
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Oh I can't wait to read all the butt hurt posts when they fix the Atheon glitch. There are going to be some incredibly angry children.
