That's just your opinion man, that shouldn't impede other people who do want to play it that way. It's not pvp so it is not hurting anyone else's experience.

I replied to your other post where you say the same thing. And honestly it is not an opinion. When you play a game of checkers there are certain rules to how the game works and how to win. You don't play checkers to double jump or flying king. We all know that those rules aren't true. You play checkers to match your wits against your opponent's within the context of the game, in this case the AI and what friendly rivals you may have.

I know it's late, but the AI is not another player, and it's not checkers. It's a video game that people want to play and enjoy. It doesn't hurt me in anyway, I have completed it many times, but other people may not have as much time to devote. They should be able to play it that way. Think about it.. It's co-op! It doesn't hurt anyone and I can see where others can exploit, but so what?! They are only cheating themselves. I just think that it's stupid to give us a pizza and start to pull all the toppings that we paid for off.

What I'm saying is that it's the same principle. Why play a game if you're not going to play the game? Bungie designed a gauntlet but left it's surroundings mostly open. Instead of facing the challenges of the gauntlet people decided to hop off the path and walk around. That's not the point of the gauntlet.

Yeah, but they didn't make any rules for it. Not everyone is a hardcore gamer. Most people tend to have lives. Basicly they are making the rules as they go, because they didn't like our solutions. There are still multiple areas that you can't be hit from, just like the platforms. So there really was no point.

I think they didn't think they needed to. I haven't played a raid in any game so far that was up to interpretation. They are very linear. Boss does X at 75% health. Your group counters with Y. And while boss is doing X it is still doing A, B, and C which the group must still manage. They usually take place in a bare arena so there is no way to cheese unless there is an error in the mechanics that can be exploited. But I don't think Bungie anticipate how many people wouldn't't know what a raid was or even weren't interested but still would want to clear the content. I think the future raids will be more strickly designed, but that's what a raid is. Also there are a lot of raiders with busy lives, families, jobs with high levels of responsibility, busnisess to run, and social activities to participate in, but they treat raiding like poker night, Saturday afternoon football meet ups, or, dare I say it, D&D sessions. Their friends and family know that Thursday is raid day. There are even whole guilds built around raiders who love to raid but don't have all the time in the world, and I'm sure things come up and each raid group has back ups. They might play on other days throughout the week to run dailies, farm mats, or work on rep or proffessions but the time is probably more limited and they probably have systems in place. For example Joe wants to be a blacksmith so he's the guild blacksmith, but the guild needs enchanters and cooks so someone else takes those roles and I've heard of guilds delegating different things to different people based on what they want to do. This, of course, doesn't mean they can't pursue other things in game, but they are tasked with keeping up to date on that particular thing. There is a point to the raid if you want to experience the mechanics and are interested in raiding, but raiding is not, usually, casual content. Patrols, dailies, weeklies, crucible, and even the nightfall are relative casual in their own regards but a raid is different and it's supposed to be. Once they retool their raid designs to safeguard against exploitation and cheesing I think you'll see more of what raids are. I was going to write up the mechanics to Turn 5 of The First Coil of Bahamut but it makes VoG look like a pamphlet lol and decided against it. The idea was to show you want a raid is and how they're supposed to be run. So, I'll link you the strategy vid if you want to watch it. This is a raid and is what VoG is modeled after: http://youtu.be/I2_ONXgvf8I Anyways I hope you enjoy the day and no worries on the response time man.

I enjoy our civil talk. The thing is, I think that this could go either way, there is pros and cons on both of our arguments. But, I think that we can both agree that they did not need to make it where you could not get on the platforms at all. That was kinda of a not so good fix. I just think that without a leaderboard for the raid, let the cheesers cheese it haha. But make it more of a challenge to cheese. Like make the enemies teleport to the platforms. My original argument is that the consumer should have some type of rights. But yes, I see your points and you are absolutely right in a lot of your points. But let's face it, the gamers who used the platforms were going to quit playing when the next big game comes out anyways. Just wait until they leave to fix it.

I can't agree to that. This why. Why let people cheese? The better question is why cheese? If you're just going to cheese something for loot so you can cheese the next thing, why even play? Why not find a game that makes you want to try, even just a little bit, and play that game? I just don't understand. Had the platforms been inaccessable from the beginning, due to kill volumes or distance, this wouldn't have been an issue. Or, maybe it would have. Yes, either way people would have tried to find another way to exploit the fight. I would imagine that when you make a game or an encounter you wouldn't't want people just cheesing it. You'd want them to take the fight, learn it, beat it, and master it if they want to. That's the point of video games, unless specified otherwise (like goat simulator lol). Even if one person is on the platforms they would be a t a graver disatvatage. Say an oracle is missed. That person is pretty much dead unless the relic holder is on that side and they can get to them quickly enough, and the relic holder can still cleanse at that point. Then they need to be ressed which puts the team at a disadvantage. Sure, they have an excellent view and a moderate range of visability, but it's not enough to really justify being there. Either way, it takes away the whole point of playing a game. Facing challenges to get better loot to face harder challenges to better loot and progress your character(s).

The platforms should still be accessible to everyone but the relic holder. And your definition for video games is yours. I love playing the game, I hate to admit it. But honestly, people who actually have lives and are just playing it for the fact to see how it is, don't believe in video game ethics. Shit.. I believe as long as you have done something legit once, by all means go back and goof off, and try to exploit and just have fun however you want. I don't like set rules on my experience is my main point. Besides there is still like 5 other ways that you can cheese that same fight. Even though the fight is very easy if you and your team know what they are doing.

In the end man cheesing is cheating. I'm not against exploring the mechanics of a game, but exploiting those mechanics to progress in the game is cheating. No matter how many times you've done it legitamately it's still cheating. And what about the creators? They made it. Shouldn't they have the right to run the game as they choose? Developers are only at the whim of the consumer if they want to be, just as players are only at the whim of the developers of they want to be. There is no harm in acting ethically but acting unethically...all that serves is to cause harm. When Bungie changed the platforms they mafeva statement, "this is not allowed". That's their choice. You can accept that or you can not. There are games that are designed for the player to play within the world however they see fit, but even those are designed with mechanics to allow them to do that and, in most cases, still have linear encounters. Wall hacking is still wall hacking. Exploiting is still exploiting. There are ethics in everything. And they're not a bad thing unless you are attempting to act in an unethical manner within them. P.S. if everyone were allowed to cheat after one legtiamate run why even have the fight? Why not tmhave the option to just press a button once a week and get your loot and experience?

This isn't checkers though its an "MMO" FPS. I don't see the point of trolling players like that. It's not gonna make anyone happy, all it does is give the players another thing to talk trash about.

My point was that it is a game with a specific design that is pretty blatant. Deviating from that design is very easy, due to the amount of freedom you have, but is not part of the game design. It is a game, as is checkers, and is founded off the same principles.

I think the issue here is that the devs are not designing with the amount of player freedom in mind. It is like a dungeon master punishing his friends for thinking out side the box when he could reward them, than use it as a learning experience for the next dungeon he creates.

Nah, it's like not allowing them to mix player knowledge with character knowledge. It would be one thing is the people using the platforms and pushing Aetheon off the ledge didn't refer to it a cheesing themselves. They know they're not supposed to be on the platforms. They know they're not supposed to push Aetheon off the ledge, but they do it because it's easy and can take the least amount of effort. But if we know we're not supposed to then why are we getting upset that it got fixed? And why in the world are we now complaining about how it got fixed (it never ends @_@). Yes it was easy, but it was comparable to the loot cave. You just sat there and shot the boss, but you couldn't destroy all the oracles from any of those positions, and you couldn't keep the Templar from teleporting if you wanted the bonus chest. Those last two things suggest that using the platforms isn't the way to run the fight, but I think we already knew that anyways.

Video games and board games are miles apart from each other, but I get what your saying. I personally never did this "exploit" while doing the raid. I do feel like it was unnecessary though to snub people who used it. No one was benefited by doing this, and if you never used the "exploit" you still weren't benefiting. I just don't know why they keep making changes to the game that are only pissing people off, not the other way around.