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10/16/2014 5:03:22 PM
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I agree Snipers aren't supposed to be in the close/mid range battlefield getting shot at from behind. They are support characters that take shots at things overwhelming the main force and give updates on the situations from a distance. This really does seem like Bungie wants to remove all creative strategies and just do it their way. By that logic, remove all the crates/boxes/ramps/pillars from the game because hiding behind stuff is the only strategy when facing the bullet sponge bosses that never stop firing their guns except when switching targets
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  • Edited by Sigurd Fatima: 10/16/2014 10:16:10 PM
    By your logic you'd just have to rely purely on your ability to dodge bullets. By this fix's logic there is still a perfectly viable way of defeating the boss, in fact it was designed specifically to be used to beat the boss. The method of sitting on the platforms I far from creative. It's childish.

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  • If we were using auto rifles to rain fire from up there, building up the most stable ones with long ranges, and trying to get outside his fire range to hit him from these platforms, it would be different. If we were trying to go somewhere we simply CAN'T be shot at, at all, like how enemies have a limit to how far they can see to fire back and whining about now being in range, it would be childish. If we have snipers, can be shot at by things, but put ourselves in a position where we can snipe without things just running up behind us, that's not being childish. In any war, you have foot soldiers, and you have the people up on hills and in buildings sniping. They can be shot back, but they eliminate the chance of the enemy coming up behind them as they stay focused through their scope and watching the field and relaying information. A creative solution to preventing tons of players sitting up there would be to put the kill zone in the areas that provide unnecessary cover, where the hobgoblins actually spawn, but not where they stand. Anywhere open to be shot at would be safe. Combine that with a sensor that demands at least half, rounding up, of all living players be on the main platform, or it forces the relic to respawn; or make it so the relic disables your double jump (so the person with the relic can't jump up to those platforms); or even to force a less-powerful Gorgon to spawn when hobgoblins do at a chance depending on how many players are on the platform (one player: 1/6 or 17%, etc; only spotted players are killed, not all of them; just as hard to kill as normal Gorgons). The Templar has learned. Guardians keep flooding in from multiple timelines, and it has been learning. Those it spots that run away tend to come back in greater force; the Templar has learned the relic is their source of power, and is trying to keep the relic out of their hands as hard as it can. If a single player wants to go snipe, they can, but the relic-bearer will need support of his allies in the form of most players staying in the fight. But that's too creative of a fix for Bungie. Better to just take it away altogether than force players to deal with repercussions.

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  • -_-. Why are you so upset though? People weren't supposed to be up there. If we didn't know that then, we know that now. Giving the playersban advantage is one thing, bit giving them a way to circumvent two keep mechanics is another. The cleansing ability of the relic was meant to be used in case the players missed destroying the oracles before they marked the raid, not to shrug off the oracles all together. Not only that but the adds pose little to no threat from that position. It also it makes the ability to keep the Templar from teleporting pointless, though not necessary. It would be a struggle to even use it. Using the platforms breaks the fight, for all intensive purposes, shrugging two challenges to the side. Had there have been a mechanics designed specifically to do that then that would be different. I understand you may not see that, but that's how I would define it. It also is how Bungie seems to see it and other developers, and players that I've observed. Also, why criticise Bungie on how they fixed something other than just to be critical? It just seems facetious. It would be one thing if the fight was impossible or took an insane amount of time to complete. But it can be completed with an understandable amount of effort and doesn't take very long at all. I said using the platforms was childish and that was why. Teams are more than capable of facing the challenges and succeeding. In real life it would be a legitimate low risk strategy, but in a video game the purpose is to take the risk, to challenge yourself, otherwise what's the point?

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  • Edited by kiomadoushi: 10/19/2014 1:06:31 AM
    First, intents and purposes*; sorry that just bugs me... Second, "not supposed to be up there", that's the devs telling you how to play the game, despite them trying to say there's no one single way. That's the upsetting part. If there is terrain, players are going to be drawn to using it. That's strategy. If the game is going to throw snipers up there, then players are going to want to snipe up there too. Players are going to find rocks jutting out from a wall just ever so slightly and stand on it, even if the developers didn't intend for players to stand up there. Players are going to find artificial cover (like the small pile of rocks in the last part of The Black Garden, just after the cutscene. Players are going to look for something the enemy didn't account for to gain an advantage, no matter how small. That's human ingenuity beating a machine, and it makes players feel good to feel smarter than a computer. It's not really attempting to cheese it, after all, they still have to put effort into it; that's players using their brains instead of their brawn to beat an enemy... and it gets punished in this game. It's "cheap" to think your way through a fight. If this WERE real, it would make no sense to randomly kill players just for standing up there unless there was some actual element, say a layer of burning lava or such, that allowed the hobgoblins to stand up there and not players... or the Templar marking you for deletion for interfering with Hobgoblins popping out of time to attack. There would be no invisible walls preventing you from using your boosters to land on a platform or stick to a small ledge. They're nerfing players ability to think through problems, instead of making creative solutions to gently [i]encourage[/i] players to do what they want, things that make sense and make players not want to do something, instead of punishing them FOR doing it. The fact it can be done in real life is the whole reason to make it a viable strategy or to encourage not doing it, not putting something unexplained that simply says "you're not playing the right way". The relic cleanse is how people are able to abuse the platforms as a cheese method. This is why the alternatives works; if the relic is taken away while up there, players can't abuse the platforms, and instead use them just as a sniper platform for one members; if the relic prevents double-jumping, players will have to stick to the relic if they REALLY want to abuse it. Both of them create a logical reason to not be able to abuse the platforms, while still providing them as walkable land. Both of them provide a means of making the boss feel smarter by giving it some power to fight back. In any group, you will have frontliners and backliners. The people with autos and shotguns are the frontliners... But Destiny does all it can to make sure backliners, the people with scout rifles and snipers, just don't exist. Yes, we all have guns to shoot at from range, but the frontliners are body-blocking, melee-pounding, knife-in-the-face distractions. The sniper DESERVES to be protected, because she still has to get the shot off or else she's useless. She's not hiding, she's just making her job easier... But for whatever reason, Bungie doesn't approve of this playstyle, approve of a playstyle where you use your sniper from a safe distance. Next they're going to prevent players from sitting atop the ledge before entering the boss fight. A sniper can sit up there too... how long til they prevent that move? Still useless unless you get your shots off, and just as vulnerable as on the hobgoblin platforms... Will they put in a cutscene that teleports everyone into the arena with no way back up? Maybe they SHOULD do that, just to add another scene to the game.

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  • P.P.S. I suppose I have to say this, in my day we would call the whole team on the platform strategy cheating. I play games to play them as the developer intended. That's where the challenge is. If it's a stand alone, single player game, sure I might dink around if I get bored, but in a shared experience my game play can affect other gamers and I personally don't feel I have that luxury. I'm not here to challenge the developers, bit to be challenged by them. That's why I buy their games. I also accept when they don't plan for everything because what they did plan for offers me a way to beat whatever I'm facing . I suppose my play style is just different than a lot of folks and is, based on the many voices on the forums, is becoming or is antiquated. Oh well lol. Time to join the old man ranks lol.

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  • Edited by Sigurd Fatima: 10/19/2014 3:17:16 PM
    If you want to have a single sniper up there, sure, go for it. That is not the issue though. The issue is whether or not your whole team should be up there. Removing the relic holders double jump might decrease their survivability. And as far as sniping goes I snipe the tank on Mars the majority of the times I fight it. As well as there are multiple occasions where sniping is viable, just less so in boss fights, which I would say is understandable. Sniping is not always going to be a viable strategy, but using a sniper quickly or for certain targets almost always is viable (ie: the minotaurs in the Aetheon fight that storm the conflux). I apologize for my frustration. It is just disheartening and saddening to me that there are those defending a whole team using the platforms. I still think having one person up there is kind of a wack strategy because they are in relative safety while their teammates are almost constantly in danger, and their ability to defend their teammates and take down the oracles is lessened by their position, leaving the rest of the team to handle at least one aspect of the fight without them. And, having defended one conflux and side alone for an extended period of tine, I can tell you it is a harrying matter. But if that's what you want to do *shrugs* I guess go for it. Maybe I just need to get better From my stand point, over the video games I've played, the purpose of a video game is to challenge the player, not yo challenge the player to find the easiest route (unless you want to play on a lower difficulty). Not how can I avoid this problem (unless that is the aim, such as in stealth games) but how can I tackle it. If the opposite is true and people are supposed to find the place developers didn't think about, or forgot to put an invisible wall here or there then I would say games are in a sad state for me. That is how this issue of a team sitting on a platform looks to me. Just so we are clear, are you defending the ability of the whole team getting on the platform or just a single person, perhaps one on one side of the map and another on the opposite side? P.S. you're not really just as vulnerable there as the adds won't focus on yo and rather opt to shoot at those on the ground.

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  • I'll admit its not good for the whole team to go up there but one or two guardians to focus fire when the shields are down is logical

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  • Now that I can understand, but of they repeal the death zone for that purpose it would just be exploited again.

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  • THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG! I haven't once defended putting the entire team up there. I've been saying it's a solo-sniper platform. I've been saying make it so the relic bearer CAN'T get up there, so it's NOT a possible strategy; either he can't jump up, or if the relic gets up there, it respawns -- anything to keep the team HAVING to stay down to take care of the relics. We tried it once, to see if it was even a possibility, and that plan is just crap. One, it's too much of a pain to put everybody on one platform and just continue to cleanse from the oracles; two, everyone bunched together makes it almost impossible to deal damage to the Templar, since everyone has to stand in the same spot, and he's going to be firing on EVERYONE at once... It's a bad idea. I've BEEN saying it's a spot for one sniper. I've been saying it's been a place to use your sniper and defend the left third of the map, the same as any other person on the left flank. The difference is, it's a sniper perch where I've given myself an advantage (is that some crime?) by going to sniper range on a platform where snipers spawn that gives THEM sniper range advantage. I'm not cheating the game; I'm not being cheap, exploiting some flaw in the game; I'm not cheesing the fight by going somewhere that I have perfect defense, offense, and control of the situation (like the Valus Ta'aurc cheese spot). What I found from our practices was that the platform was almost useless until the hobgoblins show up. I've held the entire left half by ground, confluxes and oracles, fanatics and praetorians, goblins, harpies, and hobgoblins alike. It's not all that crazy when your team is actually organized, when each member of your team CAN hold a spot by themselves while everyone else is somewhere else for whatever reason. I'm good with my scout rifle even in close-ish ranges, and can use it from the ground... but as a sniper, I prefer to be at long range, where I'm most effective and my enemy is not. That's not an exploit, that's combat. I fight at long range so I have the advantage, and the enemy has a disadvantage because it fights at short range. Can you tell me that's cheating in a game that uses guns? I have been given the specific ability to fight at long range with my scout rifle and sniper rifle -- should I not be trying to find a way to use them? I'm just going up to the snipers to defend our team against that half of them, to snipe down on the horde of harpies most of our team has to ignore to fight the boss, and to get shots off from a distance where I can actually see through my scope. I can be shot at (and often am, harpies like me because I'm their biggest threat), I still have to worry about the boss targeting me, I have to worry about protecting confluxes and killing oracles. I have to worry about the bubble going up from the Templar because I'm stuck where I can't gain cover. The difference is, I'm at a range where I don't have to worry about enemies sneaking up behind me, a smart choice for a sniper. The difference is, I save my teammates more than they save me. The difference is I get more kills than them, so they aren't even worrying about most of the threats because I'm a good sniper. And yet, instead of Bungie coming up with a decent fix to prevent teams from going up there, I've been proposing my own ideas of what would've been better, and why it's a problem Bungie did what they did. And all this time, you've been ignoring my ideas effectiveness in solving the problem without taking away sniping as a viable option. You haven't been trying to fix these ideas, make them better into a real suggestion, a balancing suggestion, but rather just fight the idea you thought I was defending when I was saying how to fix it. They've proven they don't know how to balance a game. Drastic, sweeping changes and suddenly (weeks later) calling something a bug and saying they want to fix it, even though it was how the original teams made it through normal and hard mode. They learned the predictability, they used it to organize a strategy to fight back, and now predictability is being called a bug. Fighting the game tactically is being called a bug. Using guns that worked in beta "as intended" suddenly aren't as intended. They don't know what they're doing, as far as balancing a game. The analogies have all been made - a kid who doesn't want to share, a young Dungeon Master who gets angry when his players solves his puzzles too easily... And they all are true and make sense. You don't see such sweeping changes and players being punished for playing the game they're given anywhere else. It's understandable that Bungie wants this to take more effort, be longer, and so on, to draw out the experience and make their ten-year-plan work. But that doesn't mean they know how to balance a game that's already released. These constant changes of this magnitude, this game may as well be a beta. But it's bearable. MMOs release in Open Beta all the time. They know the game needs tweaks to get it just right. In an open beta, such sweeping changes are expected and welcome... when you use the right wording as to why. "This method is a bit cheap, and we weren't aware Atheon could be pushed around." "Having too many players up there breaks the balance of the fight." "Enemies are intended to respawn less frequently. Six seconds was an old timer, and we saw it just didn't work out by having too many players run around. The idea is cool and all, but unfortunately this was a spawn location we had missed when we decided 20 seconds was a much better timer to provide the right number of enemy challenge while still providing frequent spawns." No, we get, "This isn't how you're supposed to play. You're playing our game wrong." We get stuff taken away, instead of being rewarded for doing something the Devs hadn't figured out. We're being punished for sniping during a boss fight, organizing teams to travel through time, working together to push a boss over a deep pit. Instead of making it so the whole team can't be up on sniper platforms, they took it away outright. Instead of providing more challenge to the whole past/future warp system, they're making it random so nobody knows what's going to happen to them. Instead of rewarding players for the teamwork in the manner of taking the boss take a little damage and teleporting back up (telling players "you can do it, if you want... it's just not a smart idea on this guy, he can teleport back up"), they're just making him unable to go over the ledge itself... Instead of giving a perk to the Pocket Infinity that makes it feel like an exotic, they took the one thing about it that made it feel special and replaced it with a perk that literally does nothing; I actually tried to get it nerfed, but this isn't even a Nerf gun at this point, this is more like a drawing of a Nerf gun. Instead of making the pvp change to the Vex Mythoclast, the ultimate reward in hard raid, from the beginning, they decided making it useless as a gun was a better idea by cutting its damage in half (and we still have yet to see how this fix to their nerf will go... but the fact they have to fix a nerf shows they overdid it). Auto rifles were badass... as they probably should be; they're what most people think of as an assault weapon, using to shoot other people. Just because they wanted more people to use other guns, they thought a nerf was a smart idea... but that's not going to change people's opinions about auto rifles. The most it does is make the people who used other guns from the start better off. Maybe that's a good thing, but it doesn't solve their "problem". This is feedback. This is where we're supposed to tell Bungie how we feel about these things. I'm not defending a cheatsy strategy that's actually rather crap since it weakens the players. I'm defending the right for players to look at the game, figure it out, and know what they're doing. Like if you have a sniper, you play with your sniper, you're known as the sniper, you're expected to provide sniper support... then you should be figuring out how to snipe. I'm not defending players trying to find the easiest (read: one) way to get through the game. I'm defending players trying to find the best ways they can tackle problems in the way they want to, providing many different ways to take it on, all of them the "best" by opinion. I'm NOT defending Bungie.

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  • A Sad truth but thats how they want their experience. They are robbing themselves of the experience of fighting it fair and square. But humans cut corners all the time in every aspect of life to get what they want. There will ALWAYS be a loot cave, there will ALWAYS be something to exploit and get people something or somewhere they shouldn't. But not everyone wants to do what they are doing necessarily. I personally enjoy ducking and dodging and shotgunning harpies as they flank the team and titan smashing any Minotaurs that make it past the shield bearer. But I also like to snipe and not worry about whats behind me. Thats the glory of having a diversely designed map, the OPTION to change tactic which has unfortunately been truncated hastily. Then again... I haven't raided on Hard mode yet. My patience will be tested then...

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  • You probably wear Crocs

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  • And you probably wear flip flops or sandals. They're quite comfortable aren't they?

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