But the fact you can complete the raid with out earning a single piece of gear shows how abysmal and dated this RNG system truly is. Take the raid bosses on borderlands for example (which is what destiny mirrors much more than wow in all honesty), you could spend weeks farming for the infinity pistol and never get it. However you would get other legendary drops every time you defeat the boss. So your efforts never feel wasted. That is Destinys' biggest problem with rewards right now(strikes,pvp, and raids included).

I don't see it as dated, sorry. The current gaming culture requirements these days is more an issue. How we devolved from enjoying a game with patience and long term goals to immediate and constant rewards, I will never know. Raids, in all design are a matter of long term goals and commitment.

You completely disregarded or misread my comment if you think I don't understand patience and long term goals. What I can't however support is a system that doesn't reward said patience and commitment. I see you were [b][i]LUCKY[/i][/b] enough to get a pair of raid boots, congrats. I've made it to Atheon on my warlock at least a dozen times and i go to all chest locations. I've only gotten shards, energy, and the sniper rifle 3times now. It's not a matter of patience and commitment with the raid or anything else in this game. It's a matter of sheer dumb luck. To try to argue against that as if rewards work to the contrary is not only foolhardy, but a giant F-U to the people who have poured hundreds of hours in the pve and pvp with little to no pay off for their efforts. Edit: Btw, raid can be completed in under 2h ours with a good fire team in all honesty so it really isn't a long term commitment. But then again a 2 hour run or a 10 hour run neither guarantee you anything truly of substance to reward your efforts...Cheers

Yet you have not actually cleared the raid. A dozen runs and no clears and you seem to not take advantage of the final boss loot drops that provide chances of weapon and armor drops. I absolutely feel you have no concept of patience or longterm goals. The game has been out for 4 weeks and you lament on the lack drops for the best gear in game. Give me a break. 4 weeks is not long term by any means. Especially when the timeline for new gear is not till december. Rng is, in the best sense, fairness amongst all players. The concept of hard work > all, is not a concept fit for games anymore. Developers do not want a huge disparity in player levels because some players can dedicate more time than others. The list of players able to dedicate mass amounts of time and effort into a game does not supersede the list of players who just want to play in their little free time. Its as if you feel tossing numbers validates your need for gear when it doesnt. Rolling a 6 sided dice 12 times does not increase your chances of getting a 6 more than it does the person rolling it twice. Edit: Btw long term goals has nothing to do with the completion time of a raid. It can take you 2 minutes to beat the raid and the concept still applies. Just goes to show the ignorance on these forums.

"Rolling a 6 sided dice 12 times does not increase your chances of getting a 6 more than it does the person rolling it twice." In your own words you validate my point. The game does not reward patience and commitment but hands out rewards solely on luck. Also Atheon doesn't have a higher rate of giving weapons and armor than any of the other stage bosses or the chests found through out the raid. So by not defeating Atheon doesn't invalidate my point. Also I have several clan mates who have beaten the raid numerous times who can attest to that fact. Now, that i continue to play this game daily, enjoy it for what it is, and I don't come on these forums everyday looking to cry about things not going my way shows I have patience and 128 hours on my warlock and 30+ on my titan shows a fairly solid commitment. And to your point about the disparity between the hardcore and casual, well that's little more than a cheap cop out. Why you ask? Well for one the game is pretty pve centric, so there is going to be a level disparity there no matter what(if you can play more you will be higher level, thats how mmo's work. and yes even this mmo-lite). And if you're referring to pvp will IB has already shown us that level advantages mean nada there anyway. And just a final note, I have no "need for gear" I'm happy at 29 since 30 gives me no real advantage anywhere in the game. That said your blind faith in the RNG system makes furthering this discussion mute since clearly we have very different stances on the subject.

MMOs do not work like this anymore. Sorry, but you are living an old world concept in new age game design. All MMOs soft cap progression by new content release and hard cap via lockouts. The screams of hardcore players inability to out play casuals echoes on forums of all AAA MMOs. It has no place in games today. I have never said that luck is not a factor but skill is little factor in most game design. Games that have tried skill based rewards have failed gruesomely, ie. Wildstar. Fact is you are doing it to yourself. If you can grasp the concept of dice roll then you should know that adding more raid time to your game time would not have made a difference and just because you put in that extra time that the game did not require you to does not make you any more entitled to gear than the person that got one piece on their first run. Edit: btw you validate my point that you cant grasp the concept of patience and commitment. Luck based rng does not affect your patience and commitment at all.

Ok one last reply since you still seem to have the misconception that I'm butthurt for not having raid gear and feel entitled to it. When I've already stated to the contrary that I'm satisfied with my current load outs. What you seem to not understand is that a RNG reward system nullifies the need for patience and commitment because it boils down to luck. It's as though you understand how dice rolls work but refuse to apply your own metaphor to your rebuttal because then it ceases to favor you. But i digress, I already stated we wouldn't see eye to eye on this and we don't. I accept that maybe some day you will too. However I'd appreciate it if you stopped trying to impose the false sense of entitlement on me that I've not once made claims of. Thanks in advance.

Luck has no bearing on patience and commitment, sorry. If I have a 6 sided dice and am patient and committed enough to continue rolling and not quit after 6 rolls and call it broken, I will eventually get a desired result. To say I have a 16.66% chance and it NEVER happen is statistically impossible.

(Sorry, wrong debate. Meant to put that in a crucible player loot thread)

Since I'm bored and have been drinking I'll indulge you once more. You don't have a 16.66% chance of getting desired of getting desired item as you yourself have already pointed out. So yes; luck does have a huge bearing on patience and commitment. I've been in raids where people have gotten the primary weapon shotgun (name eludes me at the moment) and people who have done the raid numerous times have gotten nothing. But again this isn't an argument of entitlement. This is objectively looking at the facts and seeing the game for what it is. The reward system is broken. And anyone who argues against that is either a blind fool or too idiotically a fan boy of bungie to admit where they fell short at. I.e, name another raid raid in "modern gaming" as you put it, where you can get nothing other than crafting materials which can be obtained from regular patrols....Cheers

Wow your approach is staggeringly naive. Ok so I will indulge, you can raid in Modern games each week and leave with nothing besides marks. For example: FFXIV currently has set loot tables for its endgame that is RNG based over 8 classes. Each boss drops 2 pieces per win. After you finish each boss fight you then have to dice roll need/greed/pass and compete with other members in the party of the same class/job. IF you dont have the luck of winning anything in the raid you are given marks that you can easily farm doing regular dungeons. The final fight usually drops 1 weapon and is again class specific over 8 classes. You have a 1/8 chance of getting something in each fight over 4 fights. Bad luck? You got marks for gear that is one tier under raid gear.

Again you're assuming I myself am disingenuously upset about my current gear. Now more to the point the system of rewarding is broken. Because as nice as your FF XIV reference was, Destiny doesn't handle loot like that which makes your point mute. But again I've already established this but continue to make arguments in my favor please...Cheers