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Edited by Specops115: 2/7/2014 4:44:11 PM
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Glad to finally see these thoughts hit the forums. I will start with my skepticism of the notion of ascending to the exotic tier based off the quote from the recent weekly update in which it was noted that a large number of Bungie employees took the game home and later questioned the loot system due to a very small number obtaining an exotic. That seems to imply that no one could just "work hard enough" and make one after putting in the hours. That being said my thoughts on the potential concept follow: I think your comparison to Pokemon brings up a nice possibility. You mentioned it in respect to weapon naming - but it would seem as though the most fitting possibility would be a simple fixed evolution. So perhaps not every weapon can ascend to exotic. However, I feel as though this evolution would likely be covered (if possible) through the existing upgrade trees. Thunderlord was a very simple example but with upgrade trees you can essentially accomplish all of the effects you describe here. Branching for example would allow you to tailor a specific weapon with desired traits, possibly at the exclusion of others. And so if this "evolution" is handled just by the upgrade trees alone - perhaps weapon tier isn't based on starting functionality but just end possibilities. Common weapons would have very shallow trees with standard end of the line upgrades. Exotics would start the journey comparable to their common counterparts but they have better end game possibilities. I imagine closing time requires quite the effort to unlock the ability to pick up ammunition remotely while cloaked (if those options are not exclusive). You could still require special work on the gun at various points in the tree between milestone upgrades including a weapon smith in the city or affixing a piece of the traveller. This possibility doesn't allow every weapon to be a true end game candidate as would your theories. But it does keep exotics rare. Truly exotic weapons here are only obtainable through a bit of luck paired with the hard work required to upgrade. This brings up the question: "What about fully upgraded weapons that are sold?" Does their new buyer automatically receive the upgrades? Or are they required to put in their own time with the weapon. I like the thought of a weapons skill being based on the relationship a player has with it. You've used the weapon a lot over time so you know how to get the most out of it. If you sell it to someone else they've gotta put in the time as well. Speaking of the trees, is there a general consensus as to the presence of the Titan symbol on the upgrade symbol of Thunderlord (not always up to date on most theories speculations)? Is it just assumed that some weapons have special perks when used "correctly"? The symbol in the bottom is likely a focus if so which would possibly grant more bonuses. Edit: Remembered that I wanted to address a point of future exotics. It has been mentioned that "things might not drop any more" at various times throughout the life of the game. This implies an evolving sandbox. One thing I'm curious about is the addition of future exotic abilities such as invisibility. You mention adding blueprints to the game to serve as easy explanations for new exotic arrivals. But my question is this: Do you expect new exotics to primarily provide new abilities or rehash old ones? From my experiences I would say guns can be added to the sandbox with various configuration files that don't require patches to the game so long as they use the existing codebase. That's not so hard to imagine if you consider all guns share some simple properties such as throwing bullets at various speeds with a few variations here and there. But with exotics it seems like to add new abilities to the mix requires patches/updates to support them. For example let's say next year they want to add a new gun that for whatever reason allows a player to briefly use two sights (I couldn't think of something else that obviously breaks existing game code). The art and configuration for the gun can be grabbed without updating the game but they'll have to add the new code to support that gun through an update. An update by itself isn't a huge deal but just interested to see how often they add brand new abilities through future exotics as opposed to remixing existing features.
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  • [quote]Glad to finally see these thoughts hit the forums. I will start with my skepticism of the notion of ascending to the exotic tier based off the quote from the recent weekly update in which it was noted that a large number of Bungie employees took the game home and later questioned the loot system due to a very small number obtaining an exotic. That seems to imply that no one could just "work hard enough" and make one after putting in the hours.[/quote]You wouldn't be able to simply "work hard enough" to earn an ascended exotic with the way I've designed the implementation. For one, I would hope that it takes longer than a weekend to upgrade a weapon or armor piece from basic all the way to superior. For another, even if you had a fully upgraded superior and the "blueprint" for a particular exotic you wanted to ascend it to unlocked, until you get that "Shard of the Traveler" or whatever other components are required for ascension along with the neccessary glimmer, you're going to be shit out of luck. Especially if they made Traveler Shards just as rare as dropped exotics, it would severely limit the ease of acquiring exotics though ascension :) As a result, I still prefer my implmentation which tries to allow all weapons to be end-game candidates, although I realize that is probably an unrealistic expectation in practice. [quote]This brings up the question: "What about fully upgraded weapons that are sold?" Does their new buyer automatically receive the upgrades? Or are they required to put in their own time with the weapon. I like the thought of a weapons skill being based on the relationship a player has with it. You've used the weapon a lot over time so you know how to get the most out of it. If you sell it to someone else they've gotta put in the time as well.[/quote]I've thought about this subject before in the past, and I'm slightly torn. On one hand, yes, I would like to see all players be able to participate in the investment game, but at the same time, selling fully upgraded exotics would be a huge driving force of Destiny's economy. A player buys an exotic, levels it up to the max, and sells it for a ton of glimmer which he then uses it to find more blank exotics. So long as the markets make it very expensive to buy a fully upgraded exotic, I don't think it would be too terrible. The concern then becomes "what about veteran playes who give fully upgraded exotics to their friends who just started playing to help them out? Is that bad? Is that okay?" Ths solutions to that problem exist, whether it's a full reset of that item like you mentioned before, or something like in Runescape where there's a system that only lets you trade if the items and money that both parties are offering are within a certain threshold of value with each other, preventing players from simply giving out free items to all of their buddies, but I just don't know how I feel about all of that yet. I don't think I've heard much in the way of speculation about the Titan Symbol on Thunderlord's investment tree, I'd assume from a UI perspective it would be a good place to list bonuses that come from the Focus Tree for that particular weapon archetype so you don't have to do a ton of backtracking to the Focus Tree to double check that sort of thing. However, that brings up the problem: the character in the E3 Demo is a Warlock, not a Titan, but this could just be yet another inconsistancy that they figured nobody would notice in the demo, much like how the Warlock Character is wearing a Titan's Mark, which presumably shouldn't be allowed to happen. As for future additions, I agree that for the most part they would just need to be rehashes of what exists in the game code. They just need to give themselves more tools than exist with the default sandbox when the game ships and they'll be able to create additional content down the line from all of those unused upzzle pieces. But for truly new abillities, I imagine new technology would be required, so they would have to patch the game, but that sorta seems like what they'll need to do anyways to allow for the game to evolve post-launch with new areas and such, so it's really not so bad...

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  • [quote]I would hope that it takes longer than a weekend to upgrade a weapon or armor piece from basic all the way to superior[/quote] I see that this would solve the issue - thus making all guns end-game potential with various amounts of time sink. But the feeling I got from the recent podcast where (I assume they were discussing Borderlands) they mentioned the difference between 1 and 2 of the time requirement to build an endgame character. They seemed to want a huge focus on resolution in this game. Kill resolution being a point specifically touched. But also build resolution. They want people to just be able to jump in and get something to end game status without a large time commitment. (At least that's what I pulled away from that discussion) Honestly though I wouldn't be the slightest surprised if very similar debates took place internally in development. So seeing either in a final implementation is completely within reason. [quote]"what about veteran playes who give fully upgraded exotics to their friends who just started playing to help them out? Is that bad? Is that okay?"[/quote] I agree with this question as well as the solution you offered. I am fairly sure I remember DeeJ addressing a point similar to this some time or another in a mailsack or an update. Something along the lines of everyone having to work for their own stuff. [quote]Warlock Character is wearing a Titan's Mark[/quote] Must have missed this - do you have a sample image?

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  • [quote][quote]Warlock Character is wearing a Titan's Mark[/quote]Must have missed this - do you have a sample image?[/quote]Sorry about the delayed response, I found this Gem when scouring youtube. These are the real -blam!-ing heroes of the Speculation Engine, these people in the right place at the right time who give us a perspective that we haven't previously seen. This is the only video I know of where they scanned over the armor pieces slowly enough to make out what he was wearing, and as you can see, he's clearly wearing a Titan's Mark, presumably this would mean his side cape. I doubt that it's a feature, because that would be silly :)

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  • No problem on the delay. Are you sure this is the right video? Watched a few minutes of it but it looks like a standard play through of Old Russia from Gamescom. No commentary apart from the Bungie employees in the Warlock/Hunter roles for that session (in the few mins I watched). And yeah I'm always impressed at all the small pieces people manage to find when they put forth the effort into digging into the provided material.

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  • 7:00 Minutes in, he cursors over the armor on the right, you can see he has equipped a Summersong Bond, a Common Titan Mark.

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  • Ah yes, I see now. I suppose anything that seems questionable then could be simply a product of a work in progress just as likely as it could be a feature we don't understand yet. Although I wish I had recorded DeeJ's full play through now at E3 but stopped because my phone was pretty bad quality and wanted to focus on the game screen rather than the recording.

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  • [quote]The concern then becomes "what about veteran playes who give fully upgraded exotics to their friends who just started playing to help them out? Is that bad? Is that okay?" Ths solutions to that problem exist, whether it's a full reset of that item like you mentioned before, or something like in Runescape where there's a system that only lets you trade if the items and money that both parties are offering are within a certain threshold of value with each other, preventing players from simply giving out free items to all of their buddies, but I just don't know how I feel about all of that yet.[/quote]Level cap like borderlands?

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  • Also possible when properly balanced.

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