JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

Forums

originally posted in: In Defense of Everything You Hate
6/7/2013 9:06:48 PM
5
[quote]When you buy a game, you’re not buying a physical object, you’re not buying an item with a measurable depreciation value. When you buy a game, you’re buying an interactive experience. Many aspects of that interactive experience will be unchanged over the course of years, such as the physics sandbox and the singleplayer modes. Unlike physical objects that experience a deterioration in quality over time, the quality of a game remains the same so long as the medium in which it is stored remains in good condition. [/quote] 1. You are buying a physical object in a sense, you are spending your hard earned money on compiled code that creates an interactive entertaining experience. 2. Wrong, the quality of a game deteriorates when newer and more fun games are released in the future. By your argument, a reasonably maintained 1982 LaSabre should cost just as much as a brand new Lexus LFA. A LaSabre can be just as fun as driving an LFA, but costs a miniscule amount in comparison. [quote]The cost of bringing a video game experience to Consumer A is identical to the cost of bringing that identical experience to Consumer B. So why should Consumer B pay less because he bought it “used” from Consumer A? In what measurable way did Consumer B have a lesser experience playing his game used compared to Consumer A buying it new? What degradation in quality of experience did Consumer B have that would justify a price drop, that would justify denying proper financial restitution to the creators of the experience?[/quote] 1. The issue with that is "new" games sold on the market to console gamers are hilariously over priced to begin with. Steam "sales" for example are not a profit loss for developers in the slightest, as most games cost perhaps 2$ per disc to print, and to ship to the US from China. The disks themselves are worthless. 2. We have no way of knowing where the arbitrary 60$ tag on games came from. I'm sure that the vast majority of it goes to publishers--not developers. 3. The price drop has more to do with the fact that a game ages. Everything decreases in value over time from the second it is released, it is called inflation. [quote]We have to treat the gaming industry differently than other industries because it is inherently different. The top of the industry, the console makers and developers, are realizing this, and shifting their strategies accordingly. And they are right. Developers who own their IP, their interactive experience, have a right to make money selling access to that experience. People who don’t pay, shouldn’t have access to that experience. [/quote] 1. No, we don't. The gaming industry is part of the entertainment industry, and the entertainment industry like every other market produces a product that people buy. 2. In buying a product--physically giving money to the creator of the product, by rights, the seller has NO SAY in what the user does with it. If a sale, which, last I checked, walking into Gamestop and buying a new game and giving them money for a disc is, is completed, Microsoft shouldn't be able to say anything about what I do with their game. I get that ToS need to be kept, but they go against the very idea of capitalism: "Let the buyer beware" which also goes both ways. Once its out of the sellers hands its not their problem. [quote]So why are you complaining about DRM? If you buy your games legally, it's not a problem. If you don't get your games legally, get your priorities straight because you paid a few hundred dollars for a console, and you pay for internet, and you probably pay for a lot of other things, so pony up like the rest of us or you don't get to enjoy, boo freaking hoo, cry me a river, build me a bridge and get the hell over it. [/quote] 1. Because as an industry we let them go to far with everything. Because games exist somewhere between entertainment and toys, they are never treated as part of either group, and we let them get away with this crap. 2. Imagine a toy dumptruck that would not function unless it was taken to the toy store once a week to be inspected by the company to ensure that the child playing with it was not using an "illegally copied" dump truck. That is the DRM piracy argument thrown out the window. Why does it need to check if a disc is pirated constantly? Why would someone buy a REAL copy and THEN pirate it? 3. Following the dumptruck argument, the kid cannot let other kids play with the dumptruck, because it has a camera on it that scans who plays with it, and if he plays with someone else with it, it gets confiscated. That is exactly what is happening with Xbox One games, except we are paying 60$ for it instead of a 10$ dump truck. 4. Lets compare it to entertainment then as well. It is comparable to going to see a new movie, then not being able to tell my friends about it. Or a better example would be buying a DVD of Macgyver Season 5, and being able to show a single episode to a friend instead of watching the whole season together, because he didn't also purchase his OWN copy of Macgyver Season 5. The rules of console gaming used to be simple: You bought the console, you bought the game, you played the game. Now the rules are: You buy the console, hook up Kinect so they can spy on you, connect to the internet constantly, download your profile, download the game, instal it to your profile, play the game exclusively on your profile. How is this simplifying or bettering the process? Why is it needed? And when will we start treating gaming companies like this like real companies and realize that just because they make INTERACTIVE media, it doesn't give them a free ride to do whatever they want in comparison to entertainment or toy companies?
English

Posting in language:

 

Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by Crawley: 6/8/2013 4:54:08 PM
    [quote]2. In buying a product--physically giving money to the creator of the product, by rights, the seller has NO SAY in what the user does with it. If a sale, which, last I checked, walking into Gamestop and buying a new game and giving them money for a disc is, is completed, Microsoft shouldn't be able to say anything about what I do with their game. I get that ToS need to be kept, but they go against the very idea of capitalism: "Let the buyer beware" which also goes both ways. Once its out of the sellers hands its not their problem.[/quote] That's not quite true. Buying a video game is more akin to buying Photoshop (and don't even get me started on what Adobe is doing...). You buy a car and you can, if you want, do whatever you want with that car, you can even make replicas of that car and sell them out of your garage. But you can't make replicas of Photoshop and sell those. And you can't make replicas of games and sell those. You really aren't buying the complied code as a physical object because you really can't do anything you want with that code because it's copyrighted. You're buying use license. But that's important because the use license is then what has the value, and if the terms of use are awful, then the price isn't worth it. If, for example, I pay...oh, random number, let's say I pay $60 for use of a car that I explicitly don't own outright. I can keep the car as long as I want and drive it whenever I want, but I have to buy gas for it and I can't resell it. Those are pretty good terms of use for a car. But what if all of the above was true, except I was forbidden from using the car when it rained. In fact, if it was raining, the car simply will not even start. Every time it rained, I would have to walk or bike to work in the rain. Maybe that's fine if you live in Texas, but it's a pretty awful deal if you live in Seattle, and it's bizarrely restricting regardless of where you live and that restriction lowers the value of the use license.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote] That's not quite true. Buying a video game is more akin to buying Photoshop (and don't even get me started on what Adobe is doing...). You buy a car and you can, if you want, do whatever you want with that car, you can even make replicas of that car and sell them out of your garage. But you can't make replicas of Photoshop and sell those. And you can't make replicas of games and sell those. You really aren't buying the complied code as a physical object because you really can't do anything you want with that code because it's copyrighted.[/quote] But see, you are wrong there too. Every object that you purchase in a free market has a patent on it, or is copyrighted. The whole idea of a SALE is releasing ownership of an object for something else of equal or greater value to you, and in return the customer gets an item that they believe to be greater in value than capital spent. I could go out and buy--say--a 60$ car, and do whatever with it. However, I could not take apart the car, and copy it piece by piece, then selling my new replica car for half the cost and outselling the original seller, that is copyright infringement and it is illegal. The issue being, however, that I can do whatever the hell else I want with the car. You fail you fail to understand that when you buy a game you are BUYING the game. The seller has no right to impose any restrictions on you when you purchase it yourself and physically own it, other than enforcing copyright protection. There is no license being purchased when you buy a game. EVERY product sold on the open market has some sort of intellectual property or creative time spent on it, a game is nothing special. Moreover, used games do not harm publishers or large umbrella companies like Microsoft in the SLIGHTEST, and the idea that it hurts developers is just laughable. Tell me, where do you buy your Xbox games from? Games on Demand? Gamestop. GAME. EB Games. Mom and Pop stores. Amazon.com. But you never actually buy games DIRECTLY from the publisher. 99.9% of game sales are through third party sellers, who already have orders placed to buy new games. Microsoft receives their money on ship day when Gamestop buys 2.5 million copies of Halo 5, NOT when the games are sold individually to customers. Thus, when a used game is sold to another customer, Microsoft and the publisher and the developer do NOT see a loss because Gamestop already paid them for the sale. If a game is good and continues to be successful, eventually the supply of floating loose used games dries up, and Gamestop and other 3rd party sellers just order more new games. And even if a game were to somehow be aquired straight from Microsoft and sold used (which would be bizzare and I could never see happening) even then, Microsoft already HAS the customer's 60$, and cannot be reasonably seen to buy another game at full price. Once Microsoft sells the crates of games to different retailers, their cash is earned and done, whatever Gamestop or EB or GAME or the mom and pop stores do after that doesn't matter, and it only goes into THEIR coffers, not Microsoft's. Hence, used games have NEVER affected game value or earnings for good devs.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • [quote]1. You are buying a physical object in a sense, you are spending your hard earned money on compiled code that creates an interactive entertaining experience.[/quote] Technically according to terms and use and fancy documents you are buying intellect or more correctly their (game dev's) intellectual property. I guess its not really a physical object however I'm no good in arguing laws

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by Hideaki Anno: 6/7/2013 9:12:16 PM
    [quote]Everything decreases in value over time from the second it is released, it is called inflation.[/quote] Not quite.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Yeah yeah I know, oversimplified and incorrect, but the general idea is there. Games devalue over time because the 60$ price tag is all hype. The fact is, while game developers spend years of time on a game, they are NOT worth 60$. Most AAA game titles have budgets equal to Hollywood movies, in the hundreds of millions of dollars, but how much does it cost to see the movie in theaters? Probably 12-15$. How much does it cost new on DVD? Probably 20-25$. So compare that to current game prices, when developers have a fraction of employees compared to the amount of people required to make a movie, and subtract the cost of big name actors playing lead roles, and take away the costs of shooting on location, and you see we are paying 5 to 6 times the cost of a movie for a game. Again, a game that cost literally 1-2$ to print in China AND send over, and they have invested a miniscule amount of capital into to keep their developer studios open. Games do NOT need to be 60$. I would say a full third of their costs come just from licensing fees to be on the stupid consoles in the first place, and another third goes to publishers.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

You are not allowed to view this content.
;
preload icon
preload icon
preload icon