Unfortunately there is no more having fun in video games anymore, all the good people gotta be punished

[quote] For me primary gun play with a mix of a few abilities and special ammo here and there doesn’t really sound enticing. [/quote] Again Im pretty sure we're on the same page here, but to clarify, I don't think thats fun IN QP, if thats the only option. That is the mode where you should be able to try any weird thing, without many limitations. And yeah, bungie def known for either not swinging hard enough on something, or swinging way to hard. Though many of these changes we've had a chance to play with, and to fairly positive feedback for the people who played it a good amount. [quote] A perfect example is the changes the made to supers back in Lost. If you don’t engage you get no super energy and if you do engage you get more super, but you finish the match faster than your supers can charge unless you go into overtime, but because of roaming supers having higher recharge times only bubble and well are seen. I miss the clutch plays roaming supers used to offer. [/quote] Alright, so to clarify how the old vs new system work. Previously, you had passive super generation, then bonus energy when you scored an elim. Now, the passive generation is notably slower, and the energy you get from elims was split, so half the energy is from the elim itself, the other half is from dealing the 200ish damage up to the kill. What this was trying to do, was promote confrontation, as players who hid wouldn't get their supers before the games end. What this unintendedly did, was let players generate supers FASTER if they didn't commit to elims, but rather took pot shots down lane to get the passive damage super energy. Contrary to what you state, apart from a blowout game, the fastest generating supers can get their supers before games end, and if your interacting with the super generation armor mods, even the slow ones to some extend. The large issue with the sandbox isn't that bubble and well generate too fast, its that generally, trials games that play somewhat fast in the new dominion game type (which was implemented because of the non confrontational play the game had, and in many ways still has, prevents games from lasting 20 minutes) tends to end in a time frame that lands just after those supers tend to always generate, but before most other supers do. With trials making up most of the games competitive pvp scene, this issue gets clouded in the super generation speed. In comp, game modes like survival tend to not play very good for bubbles and wells. Everyone will get a super, the game are long enough to make sure of that. While those do generate earlier, the best they can do is guarantee you power ammo, or one round of an obj in the likes of countdown. In the former gametype, you can just chose not to engage the well/bubble, and now they've used a super for 0 elims, and power is nice, but not compared to a super some times. This mode is a great place that lets roaming supers shine. There's just no reason to touch it with the current, terrible comp system in place (A rank based ladder that matches by skill lol). There's also an issue with reducing the cooldowns on other supers to match these defensive supers, in that if you have to 1v1 these defensive supers with your own aggressive one, you'll almost always win, and the supers become pointless. Tbh in comp and trials, not having supers AT ALL would be more healthy for the game imo, I think knowing you can always slow the game down to a crawl to play for the win condition of a super is never healthy for the game, but, I think supers are to defining for the game to see that ever happen. [quote] A prime example is the threadling and hunter decoy nerf. They nerfed the uptime and threadling dmg against players not a big deal I’ll just build into my class ability to mitigate the uptime nerf oh wait they nerfed the dodge cooldown too when running that aspect. It’s that kind of stuff that makes me dislike any ability cooldown increase. (Yeah I get the huge uptime threadling had on hunter but still that build is going to be useless now.) [/quote] I promise you, its not going to be useless, by any means. Too put into perspective the relative power of that class quickly. Assuming you'd run the threadling spam build of 6th coyote for double clones, and 2 threadling nade charges. That kit can instantly summon 4 sets of threadlings alone. 12 entities, each doing roughly 50 dmg each. The clone being tied to the faster generating ability in the game at roughly 14s meant you could have 2 nukes that spawn seeking 150dmg (3/4ths a players hp) before a single titan barricade could generate. On top of that, adding your grenade charge into the mix, especially using the fragment where dealing damage gives you more grenade energy, your melee and class ability with armor mods looping into it, and vice versa, could have a ranged deploy of your seeking 150dmg in about a minute, you had a build that could loops a single ability in every fight without fail, or, in a pinch, spam multiple charges and deal enough damage to wipe out teams without even seeing them. Yes its possible to shoot the threadlings, but if you've ever done it, you know, its almost luck dependent sometimes if your shots register. This was so unhealthy for the game, that when using it, this build was the primary way people dealt with almost every engagement. Now, what if we stop for a second, and say not one person, but 3 ppl are doing this, or 6 in qp? The games devolved to the mayhem mode, without supers, but only one team gets too do it. These abilites can be cool, and engaging parts of the sandbox, but so long as they do such a large amount of damage, AND can be used every fight, they wont be. I definitely think you should wait and see for yourself, I can assure you, while it wont feel as oppressive and funny to use, you'll still absolutely be able to get lots of value from that build. I wont to a tldr this time, as each section timestamps itself to parts you talked about, so if you wanna find a certain topic, it shouldn't be too hard. [quote , [/quote with the close bracket ] at the end btw. Slap those before and after to do that, I found it quite helpful when trying to go through each section to respond too. And thank you as well for being enjoyable to discuss with. These kinds of dialogues aren't common, but I hope the people reading this can get a sense that we can always look for common ground, and be nice about when we may disagree. And if we're lucky, a dev can read through this and reflect on how players from across the skill spectrum may feel

I've made my tea, had some food, gave it some thought, and am ready to tackle this. My main goals are to clarify a few points you bring up, if I don't mention it, we likely agree completely. I hope to give a bit more perspective on how I view these things. [quote] In an ideal world competitive players that want to win through mastery of skill and teamwork have trials with its emphasis on 7 win 0 loss streaks. Players that want to practice their skill and mastery of the game against equally skilled players have comp with its ranks and pure SBMM. Players that just want to have a good time have control and the rotating modes (clash, mayhem, etc). [/quote] (I hope that quote function works correctly, i've never really used it much before, if it doesn't, it'll come up a lot lol) I think trials stopped being a competitive endgame pvp a long time ago, when they made the changes to post 7 win cards, and players losing the ability for their card to brake. While many people currently see the mode as "Flawless or bust" like in past times, many players seem to miss the mode is more like a 3v3 pvp loot playlist, where you simply get one card for a weekend, play as much as you want, and each win after your first 7 of the week drop all the trials loot you could want. Flawless is a relic of the past that people still latch onto tbh. Comp, in a rank based ladder, shouldn't matchmake of SBMM, but rank. That's how all successful ranked modes across all of gaming function. The idea you play league or OW2 and have gold players matching challengers/GM players is insane, but almost common in D2. Theres other issues with the mode as well, like if your SBMM only matches you against golds, even after your past the gold rank, progressing higher in the ranks is extremely difficult, almost impossibly so. I also want to add this here, the old competitive system we had when D2 launched, was exactly what this ideal competitive mode was, but do to players whom the playlist wasn't intended for (the casual players) who wanted either the loot, or cosmetic/triumph rewards from the playlist, it was all but banished to the shadow realm, becoming a hollow version of itself. Dedicated players would grind the mode to steady try and increase rank, now, most of those same players who'd spend all season slowly climbing could hit max rank in a single play session, and have no more reason to play the mode. I've always wondered if the influx of higher skilled players in qp is a cause of this 'elimination' of a desirable competitive ranked experience. I also wouldn't mind seeing a 4th separation, between base qp modes like control, clash, supremacy, rift ect, as your casual fun mode, and your chaotic mario party type modes like relic, mayhem, momentum ect. I see those as different experiences enough to separate the two. [quote] Bungie applying this “loose” SBMM to control, imo, has taken away that casual/good time factor away from the mode (not entirely but it’s done enough to ruin it for the most part). And with them applying these new changes (health increase/body shot reduction, ability cooldown increase, and special ammo changes) to all of the crucible instead of just trials/comp just makes what should be a casual experience into a competitive one. [/quote] Yes, SBMM in qp is a disaster imo, and there's so many reasons I dislike the feature that this would be way to long. I think the bad effects for the high end of the skill bracket is very clear, but there's plenty of reasons its bad for low skill players as well, even if its not as obvious. The only thing I don't think should be in qp however, is the special ammo changes. The HP increase is generally good for the sandbox, letting the devs have more values to play with lets them fine tune weapons with a bit more precision. Its also to reduce the amount of players hitting 'optimal' ttks, which, in a game still running peer to peer with very delayed pings, is a speed usually more frustrating to deal with than fun. I'll save the ability rant for when a bit later. [quote] In my experience casual players just play the game for fun not competitively, and I usually see them avoid the git gud situations. This is why I think casuals will leave pvp with these changes as they will have to get better to have a chance. Especially from the theoretical oppressive snowball effect the special ammo changes might bring. I remember when trials first launched in d2 most of the casuals couldn’t compete so they stopped playing the mode. [/quote] I don't think there's anything wrong with not wanting to play to get better. (I think taking that mindset and forcing it onto the 'competitive' modes of the game in order to cater to how you prefer to enjoy the game is an issue though). Which is why I think letting QP stay in its current state from the ammo changes is important. I think a lot of people talk about the ammo systems snowballing effect with a bit too much assumption that a blowout would occur BECAUSE of the ammo. With the changes made, elim assists are the same ammo progress as DYING. Even without getting elims at all, you'll get your first ammo transmat before the same player who shot you down primary only, would get his second. Taking into account using that special ammo doesn't generate ammo progress for them, but DOES for you also sets you up to have ammo to get 'revenge' on them soon after. Or, they don't use their ammo right away, and you have the current system of both players with ammo anyways. Finally, I think however they change the game at a nuanced level, even if its barely different from what we currently have, the sudden and fierce reaction from a lot of the casual player base has will result in people not touching the mode, even to see how it is for themselves. Last weeks checkmate trials was a good example of this, as many players noted how much better the mode felt, and yet, the active player count was a third of the usual, as many people heard the word 'checkmate' and decided not to play. [quote] Not many people will agree with me on this one as it’s my preference so I get it. When I play games I like having a toolbox of options to choose from as it allows me to have more variations of the main gameplay loop [/quote] I think an important distinction that should be noted here, is where these options from your toolbox should be decided. Classes like stasis have a set identity with their fragments, and how you pair them settles you into a playstyle, its options you have to you in the build crafter before the game, to decide how you think it best to play, I think thats very healthy. An example of one less healthy imo, is strand hunter at the moment. Its toolkit has access to basically everything in the game, all at the same time. You're in danger? This clone blocks shots for you. This melee reduces incoming damage. This dive gets you out of the sky. You want radar manipulation? Clone again, you want movement? Grapple that has x2 charges, and the first one lets you infinitely use your second as the first one recharges. This toolkit is like having all the hunter classes at once, and while you may think getting to pick what best to use at the given moment in game sounds appealing, what it really means, is that the class doesn't have a weak spot, and with a small amount of pressure to lean into it, can vastly strengthen one of those aspects of its gameplay without losing the rest of it. I have a post on my acc talking about this recently if you want more about that. [quote] The focus on making pvp more primary focus with the special ammo changes I don’t like because it limits my options, forces me to work for my ammo, and punishes me for not practicing more often. I understand the want to get rid of special weapons from pvp trust me I get it as I get sniped off spawn more times than I can count, but I feel like thats just an annoyance over an oppressive playstyle. (I know the torches and pitch forks are coming for me lol). Back to the point lol by limiting my options it just makes the gameplay boring (yeah I get the argument of I can still use stuff just less often, and it’ll make me more strategic and appreciate it more when I have it). [/quote] I think in comp/trials, where the goal is to win, reducing the amount of times a player dies because of actions taken by another player that have no meaningful response is good. Weather thats high powered abilities, or easy to use one shot specials, the less the better. I just think that there SHOULD be a place for those, if not there, in qp. And I don't think people want special ammo gone from pvp, even many people who love this game stopped playing in double primary meta because they wanted more high impact moments. Specials ARE here to stay, but those moments should feel special when the stakes are high, not the standard. Snipers are a tricky weapon, as they are the single strongest special weapon in the game, so long as its within human limits, no ones expecting you to cross map double wall ricco a GL for a direct impact. How do you balance a weapon that can one shot any player, at any range, with just line of sight? Generally, you make them feel worse to use, until the ease of which players can do this is reduced to a healthy amount. However with power creep in this game now mainly buffed base stats of weapons a crazy amount, as well as average and peak skills rising, snipers are currently in a spot, where a single good sniper can completely oppress a lobby. If you've ever watched a game between 2 very good teams with snipers on them, you'll notice how slow they play. You cant peek, you cant push, you cant challenge without risking instantly dying. With this ammo being up every round, it made every round a slow waiting game as teams try and get better positioning to force the other team to push them, and not the other way around. pt.1, bc apparently there;s character limits here lol