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Edited by Bore:
11/23/2023 7:32:07 PM
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[quote]The nerfs announced in yesterday's TWID revolve around the idea that certain builds are too powerful.
Well, I'm going to remind you that power is relative. We are powerful relative to our enemies.
And what are our "challenging" enemies? What are the enemies in most content that are supposed to serve as a power check? Champions.
And guess what? They're just not. They are boring, repetitive, and mechanically simple and provide no meaningful check to our power. Stun with a few bullets and then melt with abilities is a joke.
You know what enemies do provide that check? Tormentors.
That is what we need. We need more unique, powerful enemies that meaningfully check our power like Tormentors are capable of.
Get rid of champions altogether and give us more unique, truly difficult, boss enemies, and THEN evaluate the power scales.
Example: What if there was a boss enemy that had AoE suppressing fields? Maybe buffed the enemies with damage, DR, or suppressing abilities? What if there was an enemy that spawned damaging AoEs that we had to navigate while dealing with intense add density?
What if enemies had armor types (like Tormentors) that were weak to blast, precision, grenade, melee, or sustained damage? What if multiple of these bosses could spawn and have synergies with each other?
Each and every one of those would be many, many times more engaging, complex, and difficult, than champions.[/quote]
It is relative. And the two titan builds are relatively stronger than every other build in the game.
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Didn't say they weren't. But let me ask you this. How much easier is it to solo bonk the GotD boss than it is to solo bonk the Wicked Implement boss?
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Edited by Bore: 11/23/2023 7:44:53 PM[quote]Didn't say they weren't. But let me ask you this. How much easier is it to solo bonk the GotD boss than it is to solo bonk the Wicked Implement boss?[/quote] The wicked implement boss take reduced damage from non crit damage, so obviously the hammer would not be as effective. The build still worked on everything else in that mission.
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But, as you have stated, it didn't work on what was supposed to be the power check. Which is my entire point.
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Lmao, gotta love the “The one exception to your point is true, therefore you are completely wrong” argument
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[quote]But, as you have stated, it didn't work on what was supposed to be the power check. Which is my entire point.[/quote] There was no power check. The one boss required crits. That doesn’t magically make the hammer less OP for the rest of the game. Now it’s being brought in line with other options.
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I didn't say it was. I said the boss was a power check. He had mechanics or something unique about him that made us slow down and be smart. That is a power check. And it was effective enough to slow down arguably the most powerful build on the game. That doesn't mean the build wasn't OP. I'm not saying it wasn't. I'm saying this cycle will continue until the standard for boss enemies is raised above that of champions.
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[quote]I didn't say it was. I said the boss was a power check. He had mechanics or something unique about him that made us slow down and be smart. That is a power check. And it was effective enough to slow down arguably the most powerful build on the game. That doesn't mean the build wasn't OP. I'm not saying it wasn't. I'm saying this cycle will continue until the standard for boss enemies is raised above that of champions.[/quote] He boss just needed to be crit. That’s all. You didn’t need to slow down or put any thought into the fight.
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You had to break his shoulders, shoot his crit, and stay mobile since he can suppress you and knock you out of wells, if not break them. Compared to standing still and tossing a hammer and it having bounce back to you? Your definition of "not thinking" is a bit of a stretch.
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[quote]You had to break his shoulders, shoot his crit, and stay mobile since he can suppress you and knock you out of wells, if not break them. Compared to standing still and tossing a hammer and it having bounce back to you? Your definition of "not thinking" is a bit of a stretch.[/quote] Do you have to think hard in order to shoot big glowing shoulders? Again, just because the one boss needed you to shoot crits, doesn’t mean the hammer isn’t too strong. You can argue for more boss variation, I’m all for it, but the current problem is the overpowered builds that exceed all other builds. The way you fix that is by nerfing them down to the level of other subclasses.
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Edited by Wes: 11/23/2023 10:57:45 PMPlease tell me where I said the hammer was too strong. You're also still oversimplifying the fight to make your point, which isn't even something I debated. You have this idea that I think hammer was fine and I didn't say that anywhere at all.
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Edited by Bore: 11/23/2023 10:59:28 PM[quote]Please tell me where I said the hammer was too strong.[/quote] That’s what I’m saying. That’s why hammer is getting nerfed. Issue: solar titan too strong Fix: nerf solar titan It’s that simple
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I had a typo. Sorry. Please tell me where I said hammer WASN'T too strong.
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Edited by Bore: 11/23/2023 11:01:12 PM[quote]I had a typo. Sorry. Please tell me where I said hammer WASN'T too strong.[/quote] Hammer being too strong was an issue. That issue has now (seemingly) been fixed. This is relative to other builds, not just enemies.
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Edited by Wes: 11/23/2023 11:05:15 PMI'm not debating the strength of hammer in my post at all. Or Banner. Or Well. I personally think the bonk build was OP as crap, but that is not and never was the point of my post. I'm talking generally about the cycle of power and nerfs. We will have to be continuously nerfed over and over as long as the bar for boss enemies is too low, and it is. Champions have not, and can not, keep up with Bungie's vision of player build strength, evident by every new light or dark ability or buff we have ever gotten. They can't. And bosses that sit still have the same issue.
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Edited by Bore: 11/23/2023 11:10:19 PM[quote]I'm not debating the strength of hammer in my post at all. Or Banner. Or Well. I personally think the bonk build was OP as crap, but that is not and never was the point of my post. I'm talking generally about the cycle of power and nerfs. We will have to be continuously nerfed over and over as long as the bar for boss enemies is too low, and it is. Champions have not, and can not, keep up with Bungie's vision of player build strength, evident by every new light or dark ability or buff we have ever gotten. They can't. And bosses that sit still have the same issue.[/quote] The issue these needs were addressing were the out of line builds. That is the issue that was fixed. You cannot say it want the point of the post when you centered it all around the nerfs. Enemy variety and originality is a completely different issue all together. These nerfs needed to happen regardless. Bungie is already moving away from champions towards enemies like lucent hive, tormentors and whatever the skins boys are called. I agree that we need even more of this, but that’s not an issue relating to the balancing of the titan builds.
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Edited by Wes: 11/23/2023 11:33:29 PMMy post was not centered around those specific builds at all. You injected that with your own assumptions. It was the intro at most. Also, the nerfs from the TWID extend to [b][i][u]ALL[/u][/i][/b] builds with the orb generation nerf, which is not insignificant. Enemy variety, strength, and complexity are NOT a "completely separate issue," as[b][i] our strength as the protagonists is measures by our ability to overcome strong enemies.[/i][/b] Also, as Bungie has made clear, [i][u]Bungie themselves measure our strength by our ability to overcome the enemies they put forth. [/u][/i] And that measurement will be skewed if the comparator, the enemy strength, is too low. We are going to be nerfed over and over again if that bar is not raised.
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[quote]My post was not centered around those specific builds at all. You injected that with your own assumptions. It was the intro at most. Also, the nerfs from the TWID extend to [b][i][u]ALL[/u][/i][/b] builds with the orb generation nerf, which is not insignificant. Enemy variety, strength, and complexity are NOT a "completely separate issue," as[b][i] our strength as the protagonists is measures by our ability to overcome strong enemies.[/i][/b] Also, as Bungie has made clear, [i][u]Bungie themselves measure our strength by our ability to overcome the enemies they put forth. [/u][/i] And that measurement will be skewed if the comparator, the enemy strength, is too low. We are going to be nerfed over and over again if that bar is not raised.[/quote] The TWAB addresses the need for certain out of line builds to be nerfed. Issue meet solution. That simple.
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"Out of line builds." And then they nerfed EVERY BUILD. Literally all of them with the 10 second orb generation nerf. We literally got a blanket guardian nerf.
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[quote]"Out of line builds." And then they nerfed EVERY BUILD. Literally all of them with the 10 second orb generation nerf. We literally got a blanket guardian nerf.[/quote] 3 seconds would have been better, but the nerf itself changes nothing I said.
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So now you've backpeddaled from "certain builds" (hammer and banner) to "all builds should've had a 3 second orb generation nerf." Also, it shows that they are nerfing GUARDIANS as whole. It shows they have measured the strength of the guardian and said that ALL BUILDS were outperforming enemies. The mere existence of that defends my point - the enemy standard is too low.
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Edited by Bore: 11/24/2023 12:34:06 AM[quote]So now you've backpeddaled from "certain builds" (hammer and banner) to "all builds should've had a 3 second orb generation nerf." Also, it shows that they are nerfing GUARDIANS as whole. It shows they have measured the strength of the guardian and said that ALL BUILDS were outperforming enemies. The mere existence of that defends my point - the enemy standard is too low.[/quote] There’s no backpedal. As I said, the nerfs change nothing I have said. The orb nerf reasoning is explained in the TWAB. It’s about ability strength relative to other abilities. Build strength relative to other builds is important. I really don’t know how much simpler it gets. [quote]There are many buildcrafting avenues that grant flat chunks of ability energy and ignore ability cooldown tiers. This gives them extremely inconsistent value, depending on what grenade, melee, or class ability you have equipped. Here’s an example: A perk that grants 10% grenade energy on activation results in a cooldown reduction of 6.4 seconds to Firebolt Grenade, but results in a cooldown reduction of 15.2 seconds for Lightning Grenade. [/quote]
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Just going to ignore this? [quote]However, we still need our aspirational content to remain challenging. We’re currently in a position where applying combat pressure to a well-buildcrafted player is extremely difficult... [/quote] They literally said that with the existing assets, we are all too strong. From the build-crafting THEY added in line with THEIR vision. I am literally AGREEING with Bungie. I am simply presenting an alternate cause, that may be in combination with another cause, such as outliers. Answer me this. One word. Yes or no. Is there no way whatsoever that the overly-simple, copy and paste, most frequent power checks, champions, have contributed to Guardians feeling powerful when measured against the enemy AI on that relative scale?
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Edited by Bore: 11/24/2023 12:50:16 AM[quote]Just going to ignore this? [quote]However, we still need our aspirational content to remain challenging. We’re currently in a position where applying combat pressure to a well-buildcrafted player is extremely difficult... [/quote] They literally said that with the existing assets, we are all too strong. From the build-crafting THEY added in line with THEIR vision. I am literally AGREEING with Bungie. I am simply presenting an alternate cause, that may be in combination with another cause, such as outliers. Answer me this. One word. Yes or no. Is there no way whatsoever that the overly-simple, copy and paste, most frequent power checks, champions, have contributed to Guardians feeling powerful when measured against the enemy AI on that relative scale?[/quote] That is from the section on nerfs to survivability options… not the orb/mod balancing section. Yes, the stuff they nerfed in that section was/is too strong. But that’s also not just because of enemies. That’s one hell of a word salad question.
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Fine. I'll ask it again. And I mean it in the absolute sense. Is there a [u][b]zero percent chance[/b][/u] that the weakness of champions and lack of consistent power checks (from enemies) contributed to this notable difference between enemy power and guardian power?
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Edited by Bore: 11/24/2023 1:03:34 AM[quote]Fine. I'll ask it again. And I mean it in the absolute sense. Is there a [u][b]zero percent chance[/b][/u] that the weakness of champions and lack of consistent power checks (from enemies) contributed to this notable difference between enemy power and guardian power?[/quote] I don’t think you get what I am saying. The relationship to enemies is a factor, but it is not the only factor, nor a factor for every single nerf mentioned. That’s why enemies aren’t getting blanket buffs (this time). Power creep over this past year and a half has left much of the game unbalanced for lack of a better word. We are stronger across the board, but there’s still outliers in our builds. Some of those were addressed in this most recent TWAB. Woven mail is getting another nerf because it is too strong against combatants and is better than other survivability options like Void OS. The new scaling for kickstart mods is because the current version bypasses the intended balance between abilities based on their cooldowns and is not related to enemy strength. There’s a baseline balancing point used to balance enemies to players. Abilities above that point get enough down and those below get brought up. Balancing based on the stuff above that point leads to an arms race between sandbox and encounter design teams. I never said enemies can’t be buffed or that new types of enemies should be added, just that those problems are unrelated to the ones addressed in the TWAB.
