Prithe actually name some [i][b]legitimate[/b][/i] plot holes in the Destiny franchise. Its in my experience many people in this community tend to interpret every unanswered question, or thing they don't immediately understand as a plot hole, when that's not the case. A plot hole by definition is "an inconsistency in narrative or character development of book, film, television show, etc..." For example a character could be deathly allergic to cats but is later seen petting a cat without consequences. I am going to assume you're not versed in the lore. Cayde's always been a reckless happy go lucky character, he was acting recklessly the entire opening mission of Forsaken. His death isn't a plot hole, also Uldren and Barons have plenty of motive for killing him as Cayde was responsible for their capture and imprisonment. Cayde could've cowered before Uldren and begged for mercy, [b][i]that[/i][/b] would've been an inconsistency in his character and therefore a plot hole. Instead Cayde did as Cayde does and stuck to his guns then delivered the best one-liner gut punch in the game. Us not strand grappling Ghost away from the Veil, maybe a plot hole. In gameplay strand pulls us to the thing, not pull the thing to us. Likewise, Strand narratively was unreliable power that we didn't have full mastery of until the campaign was over. The "river of souls" story explains Strand fairly well, it isn't control like Stasis but rather the relinquishing control in order to "flow with the river". To use strand to grapple Ghost would've been an attempt to exert control over the situation and thus I can see why we didn't yoik Spiderman yoink Ghost away.

[quote]You've made it clear this isn't important to you, and that you have no desire to genuinely contribute to the conversation. [/quote] Sound familiar? HAHAHAHAHAH!

"You've got an overdeveloped sense of vengeance. It's going to get you into trouble someday." To answer your other response as I had this written out but forgot to post it; Firstly, I am a little sad you forgot the Bather's encounter on the old Levithan Raid, where we fought newly birthed Cabal warriors who were nearly naked save for a helmet and loincloth. The Cabal who inhabited D1 Mars was a preliminary scouting legion sent ahead to gather and send back information, they had been with outdated tech, armor, and weapons for ages before Ghaul showed up. The Cabal pressure suits were to protect their bodies from the alien environment (see Grimoire card Cabal 3). They need their pressurized suit to survive on an alien planet as much as any astronaut would need their pressurized suit to survive in space. Aren't all Guardians also wearing pressurized armored suits to some degree? How else are we breathing inside those helmets? We don't know the exact gravity of Torobatl. It could've had Earth-like Gravity, but it might've not; there's no way to know especially since Xivu destroyed it. Furthermore, the Cabal themselves are known for genetic engineering, it's how Calus was able to mass produce fully grown battle-ready soldiers. Even after the Levithan raid, he has many of them in cryostasis down on Neptune. It's why Caitl's soldiers are almost twice the size of any Red Legion or Shadow Legion soldier. It's why Ghaul was an outcast and left to die as a baby because he was a malformed albino runt. Since the Cabal lost Torobatl to the Hive they've been forcing themselves to adapt to living elsewhere through genetic engineering, we see some of this in the lore tab from the Legatus armor set. That's also not considering they're fighting a war of attrition now. Without their homeworld or Vanguard alliance, the Cabal have nothing to produce or supply them with weapons, armor, vehicles, medical supplies, repair kits, food, etc... so armor that provides total coverage is probably at the bottom of their list of concerns. Furthermore, we don't know the exact climate of Torotbatl if it was Earth-like or not, the Helm itself is climate controlled, and the Levithan (pre-Haunted) had sci-fi atmospheric containment shielding. So if that doesn't answer why the Empress' Cabal are suddenly running around with bare arms, I don't know what will for you. Secondly, Crota's throneworld is currently (as of D2) in ruins; in the lore, Eris has revisited "the ruins of Crota's Throneworld." It's a bunch of crumbling structures and floating rocks. The fact we returned to it in D1 for that stealth mission but it' ruins now in D2 implies that throneworlds take time to degrade after their owners die. Crota and Oryx were paid massive tithes through the Sword Logic so their Throneworlds were more structurally sound than others. Moreso Oryx because he spent untold millions of years driving entire species into extinction. They may be dead, but they didn't cease being Hive deities, and dare I say the Hive "cared" about Oryx enough to try forcibly resurrecting him as a Hive Guardian in the new Ghosts of the Deep Dungeon. Furthermore, my memory is very fuzzy that stealth mission to Crota's TW had a boss didn't it? We know it's possible for paracausal beings to usurp other paracausal beings' power. Oryx did when he killed and absorbed the power of Xivu and Savathun to kill the Worm God Akka. So it is possible the boss we faced at the end of that mission had absorbed the mantle of Crota and was what held his throneworld together, till we killed it. Also worth noting is that Mara Sov stole Oryx's power following his death and used it to fuel the creation of Elusinia, its possible given the massive tithe Oryx received through the Sword Logic, Mara was able to keep the Dreadnaught intact enough for us to have still Crucible matches there. The Titan crucible map has remained in rotation even after Season of Arrivals and is still available now during Season of the Deep. As for Cayde, leadership doesn't make someone smart let alone competent for that matter. You have to remember Cayde wasn't made Hunter Vanguard because he was "the best of the hunters" he only became Hunter Vanguard after Taniks returned and murdered Andal Brask. As you probably know, no sane hunter actually wants to be Hunter Vanguard, so thus the Vanguard Dare exists. Andal and Cayde dared one another to kill Taniks. Whoever failed to kill didn't strike the killing blow had hang up his guns and take the open Hunter Vanguard position. Initially, Cayde thought he'd successfully killed Taniks, but Taniks survived unbeknownst to Cayde (being a roach is Taniks' whole gimmick). Still, in D1 you can randomly hear a PA announcement where Cayde asks for the hunter to "stole his sparrow to return it right now," only for him to immediately follow that line with "Oh wait... nevermind, it's right here!" He lost track of a darn sparrow right under his nose. In Taken King Cayde divulged his entire not at all sectioned plan to steal Eris' ship to infiltrate the Dreadnaught, to which Amanda Holliday infamously responded "How about test flight?" Even then Cayde's experimental stealth drive broke prematurely, and Eris' ship got blown up. A course of action that effectively stranded one of the Vanguard's best operatives on the Dreadnaught with no ship and no backup. In D2 Cayde somehow didn't piece together that an enemy force (the Red Legion) was interfering with the City's communication network. Then he got stuck in Vex portal loop on Nessus and had to have the player rescue him. Cayde constantly tried to pass his paperwork onto different people, Hawthorn included (line from the old Arms Dealer strike). Also, the Cayde's Six comics had not been for Petra calling in the Corsair calvary, the Barons would have escaped after Cayde shot Fikrul. Cayde took credit for Petra's judgment call immediately after that. Even Failsafe said during the Inverted Spire strike, "Well... Cayde's dumb." Cayde may have been Hunter Vanguard, but sadly that didn't make him smart. With all that said, I will kindly ask you to stop harassing me now.

[quote]"You've got an overdeveloped sense of vengeance. [/quote] What??? Nah! It's an overdeveloped sense of sniffin' out bullcrap! Why the hell do ya think I'm here? Why the hell do ya think I follow this shitshow franchise's every move? HAH! [quote]It's going to get you into trouble someday."[/quote] Ohohoho, yes, I'm aware! It's gonna be so much FUN! [quote]you forgot the Bather's encounter on the old Levithan Raid[/quote] Tsk, tsk. Ya never LEARN, do ya? I didn't forget jack! "oOoH yer NOT weLL vErsEd iN da LoRe" "yEr uNHiNgedddd" Ya really need to stop with all these baseless assumptions, pal. They ain't gonna get ya anywhere! Try harder! [quote]where we fought newly birthed Cabal warriors who were nearly naked save for a helmet and loincloth.[/quote] Yup! I know! I don't even know why ya even mentioned this! It sure as hell didn't go anywhere in yer argument here! What, do barely-clothed Cabal manbabies get ya goin' or somethin'? HAH! What, didya bring this up because ya wanted me to say somethin' like "Oh yeah, those Bathers should also be shriveling up like soda cans cuz they're basically naked!"? Whattya think I am, THAT stupid? That's a TERRIBLE example! Those Bathers weren't even on a Solar System planet! They were on the Leviathan! The only plausible explanation here to how the Bathers don't shrivel up is that the Leviathan (and by extension, all other Cabal ships) is set up to support the atmosphere that the Cabal freakin' came from. But then, does that mean Guardians should be the ones in danger in the Leviathan because THEY shouldn't be able to survive the atmosphere in it? It's just another one of the myriad things Bungo didn't bother payin' attention to! Which meeeeans we technically don't have a single clue just how these Bathers and Cabal ships are supposed to work all the time! So why would ya expect me to use it as an example??? HAH! [quote]The Cabal who inhabited D1 Mars [were] a preliminary scouting legion sent ahead to gather and send back information[/quote] Yup! I know! So? [quote] they had been with outdated tech, armor, and weapons for ages before Ghaul showed up.[/quote] HAHAHAHAH! Really? THAT'S what ya pulled outta yer -blam!-? Ooooh, yeah! Cuz the full-body suits of high-tech armor are waaaaaay LESS advanced than the sleeveless sci-fi Roman-lookin' crap they got on after D1! Uh huh! Uh huh! The reason why they went from Space Marine-adjacent dunderheads to space Roman dunderheads is [i]definitely NOT[/i] because of mismatched art direction between D1 and D2, where dev teams had conflicting ideas about how they should be portrayed! Of course, they were just gonna portray 'em however they wanted anyway, no matter how little sense it made or how it conflicted with what little integrity this fictional world started with! That's how Bungo do! [quote]The Cabal pressure suits were to protect their bodies from the alien environment (see Grimoire card Cabal 3). They need their pressurized suit to survive on an alien planet as much as any astronaut would need their pressurized suit to survive in space.[/quote] Why are ya reiterating this? I already said that! [quote]Aren't all Guardians also wearing pressurized armored suits to some degree? How else are we breathing inside those helmets?[/quote] They are? Where? When? When was THAT said? I mean, don't get me twisted! I wouldn't be surprised if it WAS said somewhere! It would make sense to explain why the hell Guardians didn't get crushed in places where the atmosphere would do that! Maybe those Cabal ships that may or may not support Torobatl's atmosphere??? But hmmm... if those ships DID do that, how come there's no force-field-lookin' things on entrances or exits that like... I dunno... keep the atmosphere workin' in there?? Y'know, like a deliberate SIGN that the ships DO that? Hmmmmm... HMMMMMMM! Oh well! Guess it'll remain a mystery! Hahahah! So hold on, there's more here. Guardians may need life-supporting pressurized armor for places that WOULD crush them flat (if only they would make clear what those places were so these kinds of problems don't happen!), but the worlds that the Traveler supposedly [i]made able to support life?[/i] Really? Did the Traveler NOT make all the other worlds in the Solar System have atmospheres similar to Earth? Or did it NOT do that and make things complicated for us for no reason??? If so, which worlds are the C-minuses??? Agh! For shame! And here I thought that glorified cueball was supposed to CARE! Or maybe it doesn't! Who knows? Maybe alla that Traveler stuff also changes without rhyme or reason too! Can't wait to find out! HAHAH! Man, Bungo really oughta THINK more, shouldn't they? [quote]We don't know the exact gravity of Torobatl. It could've had Earth-like Gravity,[/quote] Yes, Shade, yes! Of COURSE it had Earth-like gravity! That's exactly why the Cabal in D1 had those suits on 'em! Brilliant! [quote]but it might've not;[/quote] Ooh! Ooh! That reminds me! I got a pretty sound [i]loooooore theory[/i] about what Torobatl's atmosphere was like! -blam!- ya can't guess what it is! [quote]there's no way to know especially since Xivu destroyed it.[/quote] How convenient for the writers! HAH! [quote]Furthermore, the Cabal themselves are known for genetic engineering,.[/quote] Nope! Just Calus, as the cloning buzzwords are only EVER brought up when he's in the question. [quote]it's how Calus was able to mass produce fully grown battle-ready soldiers. Even after the Leviathan raid, he has many of them in cryostasis down on Neptune[/quote] Bingo! Congrats! Ya were correct for once! [quote]It's why Caiatl's soldiers are almost twice the size of any Red Legion or Shadow Legion soldier.[/quote] [b]Excuse me???[/b] HAHAHAH! Yeah! Suuuuure! Ya totally didn't pull this one outta yer -blam!- either! Cuz it's totally written somewhere! Although, curiously enough, in my efforts to corroborate yer claims to answer the exact question of just why her Cabal are so huge, I happened across an actual good post on the subreddit! That almost NEVER happens! Hahah! Sure, it's covered in the usual comments that have Bungo-lovers makin' stuff up on the fly due to Bungo's lack of care, effort and attention like always... BUT! It puts into perspective that there ISN'T a real answer for it! For ANY huge Cabal, for that matter! Have a looksie! https://www.reddit.com/r/destiny2/comments/vlvnzw/lore_question_why_is_caiatls_cabal_so_much_larger/ ^ Cuz Cabal get huge because...? Reasons! No, wait! Their pride! Yeah, that! That makes sense! HAH! It's because of their pride! Not genetic or cloning bullcrap! HAH! Because someone somewhere heard someone say it on the sub and that's that! HAHAHAHAH! Sorry, sorry! It really just dawned on me that Destiny really DOESN'T have a single clue why normal Cabal get huge! HAHAHAH! I found the comment made by that BlinkysaurusRex user to be the crown jewel of that one, though! Glad to see SOME folks in there got their heads screwed on right! [quote]It's why Ghaul was an outcast and left to die as a baby because he was a malformed albino runt.[/quote] What... does this even have to do with anything? [quote]Since the Cabal lost Torobatl to the Hive they've been forcing themselves to adapt to living elsewhere through genetic engineering, we see some of this in the lore tab from the Legatus armor set.[/quote] Literally. WHERE. Y'know, after goin' through the armor set, your [i]lies[/i] are really getting tiresome. When I said I wanted effort from ya, I didn't mean THIS! [quote]That's also not considering they're fighting a war of attrition now. Without their homeworld or Vanguard alliance, the Cabal have nothing to produce or supply them with weapons, armor, vehicles, medical supplies, repair kits, food, etc... so armor that provides total coverage is probably at the bottom of their list of concerns.[/quote] Wha...? What the HELL are ya bringin' this up for? This has nothin' with anything I said, NOR the point I was tryin' to make! (cont'd)

[quote]Furthermore, we don't know the exact climate of Torobatl if it was Earth-like or not,[/quote] Correction: YOU don't know the exact climate of Torobatl! REAL lore nerds like ME know that it's got a warm and humid climate! HAH! [quote]the [H.E.L.M.] itself is climate controlled, and the Leviathan (pre-Haunted) had sci-fi atmospheric containment shielding. So if that doesn't answer why the Empress' Cabal are suddenly running around with bare arms, I don't know what will for you.[/quote] OH. MY. GOD. [b]Did ya actually think that ALL I was tryin' to question here was "How come Caiatl's forces are sleeveless?"???[/b] [b]HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!![/b] How in the absolute F**K did anything I said to ya in my previous argument even communicate that to ya??? THE QUESTION IS: [b]Why did an ENTIRE RACE of aliens that can't survive without full-body pressurized armor suits in alien atmospheres suddenly switch to armor that leaves their arms exposed, their mouths exposed, YA NAME IT, without F**KING DYING???[/b] Well, lemme TELL YA, Shade! Genetic or clone bullcrap? Even though that's NEVER ONCE been explicitly stated to be used anywhere other than matters concerning Calus? NOPE! Because of a lack of resources from a "war of attrition" that makes their armor wouldn't even matter because the atmospheres should be killin' them anyway if that was the case?? NNNOPE! It doesn't MATTER! It doesn't matter cuz they'd be DEAD all the same. Not just Caiatl's Cabal. ALL CABAL in D-f**king-2. Caiatl! Ghaul! All of 'em! DEAD. ON THE SPOT. THE ANSWER IS: BUNGO F**KED UP! Like they ALWAYS do! Deep down, I know ya already knew that! Ya coulda just agreed! That's all ya had to do! But nooooo, Shade! Ya had to sit there and and get references wrong and pullin' out subjective and baseless conjecture over and over again like it was actually gonna DO somethin'! (cont'd)

[quote]Secondly, Crota's throneworld is currently (as of D2) in ruins; in the lore, Eris has revisited "the ruins of Crota's Throneworld." It's a bunch of crumbling structures and floating rocks. The fact we returned to it in D1 for that stealth mission but it' ruins now in D2 implies that throneworlds take time to degrade after their owners die.[/quote] Oh, yeah! That's totally what that implies! This? https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/reverie-dawn-tabard Why, it means nothing! Even though, his Throne World crumbled around her immediately after he died! But then again... that makes me think. Why AM I even tackling this second portion if I know I can't actually dig up anything about how these Throne World rules actually work at a non-surface level? I mean, for chrissakes, it really doesn't take a genius to figure out that the Throne World and how it works is really just contrived for whatever the hell Bungo wants it for at the moment for anyway. Transferring "ownership", paracasual this, paracasual that. There is nothin' more glaring to the fact that this franchise has no foundation or solid rules that it follows when it can just throw "paracasual" at whatever needs explaining. It's pathetic. It's even got ya sayin' stuff like [quote]its possible given the massive tithe Oryx received through the Sword Logic, Mara was able to keep the Dreadnaught intact enough for us to have still Crucible matches there.[/quote] like it actually means anything. 'Ol Queenie doesn't even USE the Sword Logic. How in the hell can she even do that? Or why? Cuz Shaxx banged her once? Pfft. (cont'd)