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Edited by Muffincup:
3/22/2023 6:31:48 AM
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They really need to understand the real intended purposes of weapons. Like the average distance of real combat is 200-300 meters, and AR platforms are the standard for that. Something like an SMG is only being used specifically for urban combat or close quarters, those subsonic rounds are supposed to hit like a truck, but an AR can still get the job done pretty well. Its basically a length issue, not power, but they took a bit too much power away.
In this game we have mostly close quarters and that's it. There is almost no such thing as long distance engagement, and mid distance is pretty much short range, save for a corridor at times, so yeah they're not as useful as they should be. I feel they do need to be tuned better to be effective at average engagement distances for Destiny maps, but I think the biggest factor in the dismal weapon balance of this game is that alot is just built for shotguns, sidearms, and SMGs, and even sidearms are completely useless.
They used to be able to compete some, but that has changed. Bungie needs to be building maps more for all the weapon types. Scouts often feel underwhelming, simply because they fire too slow for the map sizes, for example, but that's hard to balance in close quarters focus PvP, so I cut slack for that. We just need more maps that work for medium to long range weapons so they can actually get good use, and some minor buffs could help too, I feel.
If they just built up maps to be less close quarters everywhere, and more mid range focus, I don't doubt balance would be easier to accomplish, and more variety would become more common. They also keep building things like short range scouts, or ranged SMGs, and they just need to stop that all together. Keep the weapons and their perks in their specific talent groups. Scouts are specifically for long range, keep them there. SMGs are mid-close, and they shouldn't be an AR. Just my input, don't want to claim I'm right, but that seems like the glaring issue to me.
Oh! What I found surprisingly enough to most, I'm sure, is that the Seventh Seraph Carbine with a good Vorpal roll, or even Swashbuckler, is actually a pretty decent gun for PvP.
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First off, I'm going to take a wild guess here and assume you know nothing about combat. Second, Subsonic rounds move slower than the speed of sound, it is common (BUT NOT ALWAYS) to run subsonic loads when you suppress a weapon system, to reduce the noise that the rounds make as the cut through the air. Because they are sub sonic, they make no crack or pop. Third, a sub machine gun is called so only because it has less firepower than a traditional machine gun, has nothing to do with the ammunition. Fourth, this is a video game so all of that stuff aside because idgaf about what you know or care to know, this game caters to the spray and pray approach and punishes those who use some precision weapons (scouts). You're right about the map design, there are a whole 2 maps that have any kind of open extended distance and it allows these SMG exploiters, shotgun sliders, and DOT users to thrive. Open up the maps and lets see who prevails. PVP playlist idea: Restrict the use of some weapons (anything with DOT, Thorn, Le Monarque, Witherhoard, etc) Restrict Exotics period so people cant rely on special perks. Remove Radar Allow only one super use per match or slow down the cooldown Make better maps.
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Most options I have thought about in the past, myself, but restricting people's weapons ultimately seems like a bad move. This was really a big one for awhile like, I even thought about only one sniper per team, or even one shotgun. I've even thought maybe it is just something I need to adapt better for and I'm just not there yet, but as time goes that one feels less likely. I don't think it needs to be like real life. Please no, real life is bad enough, I don't want real videogames. Its just the best comparison I could make with numbers and thinking of my experiences as well, and trying to give a kind of framework to scale, if that makes sense. I know scouts was alot of my deal, they were just the most familiar, because I do use them alot. They have utility, but only very specific ones, and it could be much better, the ultimate goal is simply variety. I do think one super per match, per person is a solid, still. I don't think I'll ever back down from that. They want us to rely less on abilities then they have to take that away, that's the unfortunate truth, which they did with this season for PvE side, and it seems acceptable to help balance. Then you really have to think, instead of tossing it as soon as its charged. More tactical decision making. That's what PvP is about right? I definitely agree with better map building, as per the original comment, but there are a huge variety of potential options, and something else I've thought about for a long time too... Going crazy. I'm thinking equip multiple exotics level crazy, no gear restrictions, but it will either be really fun and more free, or it will completely destroy PvP, there is no middle ground there, and it could easily just become Mayhem. Super fun or the worst idea ever, and it would be a huge gamble, but that's why we have labs right? They implemented them, why not go crazy with labs? Its at least a detour from the same stuff, but I understand reservations when its Bungie 100%. I like removing radar, as it can be distracting from the moment. It helps - sort of, but its vague enough that its really not horribly useful. I think we can manage without.
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[quote]Something like an SMG is only being used specifically for urban combat or close quarters, those subsonic rounds are supposed to hit like a truck[/quote] You know absolutely nothing about real-life combat or ballistics if you think regular infantry use subsonic rounds, or that they "hit like a truck".
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I'm not claiming to be an expert. I was thinking of like a .45 ACP, and .300 Blackout I guess, more specifically, which are subsonic rounds, very commonly used. They just kind of, go through things. Alot of power in those.
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[quote]I'm not claiming to be an expert. I was thinking of like a .45 ACP, and .300 Blackout I guess, more specifically, which are subsonic rounds, very commonly used. They just kind of, go through things. Alot of power in those.[/quote] I didn't say you were, but .45 ACP is not commonly used by police and the military, nor is .300 Blackout, even within special forces units. .300 BO is only just recently hitting units, and spec ops are not your average infantryman using suppressed weapons with subsonic rounds to kill people quietly. Both are incredibly niche, special-purpose rounds.
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Yes military is 5.56, though changing with the new Sig platforms. My friends do alot of builds, I was just talking recently with one of them about his Blackout build. He knows a sh*t ton.
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Holy Cow, someone who finally understands lol. Most of the imbalance in this game is soley based on the concept of map design. Everyone of them is close quarters areas connected with sniper lanes. They make 1 big map and pvp community lost their minds about how boring and slow it played. If they nerf range than increase damage. Why? Shotguns and fusions will decimate accross the board like they did before smgs were available. The maps 100% favor fast firing weapons for MOST players. The sweats could use a pencil and still dominate most lobbies so that covers the I MAKE IT WORK GREAT CROWD. Overshields and jug shields up ttk, healing nades and the clutter offer plenty of cover than litters all the maps. The real solution to all of this, everyone is the same, ur character is cosmetic only, mix lobbies between console and PC (most other fps games do this already) that will give everyone a bigger pool of players to match against thus inceasing likely hood of good connections while having sbmm. Preset loadouts with preset perks like CoD creating a max optimal line and doesnt gate keep due to rng. There are a few others but this is to long already.
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Edited by Muffincup: 3/22/2023 4:22:15 PMYeah its kind of a vicious cycle. I never expect anything to be done about it so I don't put too much stock in anything. But its something thats always bugged me. I stopped playing COD because of the awful people, but also because all the maps are like 5 square feet😂. Fast fire rate does always win out in Crucible too, just because there isn't much distance for the weapons to utilize. They did kind of make that one more difficult because range for things like 180 hand cannons, or 180-200 rpm scouts are low. Nameless Midnight is still as good as it was years ago though, I love that scout, but try using something like the Iron Banner one (I forget the name because it doesn't have much utility) has a slow fire rate and hits hard, but then we have these maps that look bigger, but there are so many pillars and platforms, all kinds of things just littered throughout, slow firing weapons can't keep up with damage and how people move, and that compounds the short range weapon issues. I mean, maybe all they need to do is make things a little more open, even, you know, not so many corners throughout the lanes. But the other issue is the lanes are always exactly the same. Its always three lanes, left, middle, right, and it doesn't deviate from that, so every map is also just as predictable as the last, and they essentially just become the same thing over and over, because three consistent lanes means the same playstyles for every map. No quarrels with playstyle, but man its rough design. I don't doubt that plays into the issues and frustrations too. Perhaps the maps just need to be built more naturally with varying numbers of lanes. I'm open to multiple ideas. If you've ever played Insurgency, they have phenominal map building. There doesn't seem to be a formula, so much as they build what feels more natural. Granted, they have real world places they work off of, but Destiny could utilize that and put the Destiny spin on it with super sci-fi future stuff. With the jump abilities we have, they could do so much more than they currently do, and the addition of Strand, and grappling? Well, Titanfall 2 style maps would be a good comparison, because we have similar movements now. They also build well for what the game is. They stick to lanes but they deviate them some and that's part of why the game is still alot of fun, and one of my favorite shooters. The classes have updated, the weapons have updated, we've gotten new classes added with majorly different ability sets, but nothing is built in PvP to compliment that, its just the same, unevolved stuff that's always existed.
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could we just have you balance the crucible i been echoing that for awhile ranges need to be respected more varied maps defintely agree my favorite auto rifle has always been shadow price i need to use it more
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I'm sorry how exactly is a Carbine good with Vorpal in PvP?
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Get a good one and you can shut down all kinds of supers. Except the one Hunter class. Apparently nobody understands the value of that perk in PvP. That's fine, I'll still use it.
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I can kill supers just fine without it. I have a Reconstruction, Target Lock Carbine that works everywhere.
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Sweet, that sounds fun too, I do enjoy me some Reconstruction and Target Lock as well.
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They need a range nerf bad.
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Build maps?
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You're right, that might be asking too much of Bungie. I think it might be blasphemous in their religion.
