I took 2 new players through Prophecy a few days ago. We all had a blast! It was hard though. But if coming off the campaign, a player just sees grinding strikes, he won’t keep playing!

You do realize that's what every current player did, right? We finished the campaign and then just hopped in strikes/crucible until we had enough/were knowledgeable enough to do harder things. Every single player has that experience. Sure some leave and that's fine, but tons of people have stayed. This is the game loop. It's all about tiers and growing as a player, one step at a time towards the endgame. Endgame activities are a lot of fun, not arguing that. What I'm saying is that it's also important to spend time doing the early game stuff because it is the foundation you will be building your character on. Having a clear understanding of your abilities and gear through time and investment is key to the growth of a player. If you hand a new player a smattering of gear and hold their hands can they get through some endgame stuff like dungeons? Definitely. But that's not healthy for the game or its players. Fast tracking the content like that, giving people a false assessment of their own skill and ability sets them up for failure. You ever hear the saying "let kids be kids"? Kids doing (what seems to be) trivial things, playing with each other, using their imaginations, being silly... They learn so many different things by doing those things. Early development is important, it is the foundation they build their lives on... Let new players be new players...

Dude. It’s a video game. I wanted to play a video game with some friends. That’s how you play a video game! No, many of us used strikes to get up to light and then did a raid. You learn by playing. You ever heard of letting kids be kids? Let the kids play the damn video game; do not gatekeep the real game behind a grind.

[quote]many of us used strikes to get up to light and then did a raid. You learn by playing. [/quote] So literally what I've been saying? Good, glad you understood.

Great. A few hours after beating the campaign you’re ready for a raid. Do it. Have fun. You shouldn’t be held back by ridiculous glimmer costs. Glad we agree.

[quote]Great. A few hours after beating the campaign you’re ready for a raid. Do it. Have fun. You shouldn’t be held back by ridiculous glimmer costs. Glad we agree.[/quote] You aren't held back. If you're truly raid ready after a few hours, you've earned and purchased what you need, so there's no arbitrary restrictions. If however your friends just help you through and you still have crap gear and half your subclass... Were you really ready to raid? Nah. Just had a cozy backpack to ride.

No arbitrary restrictions? Hm. - Combat style mods sold on timer - Fragments and aspects high cost - Lost sector exotic grinding - Masterworking materials rare outside GMs.

I'll agree with the combat mods, that system definitely needs an overhaul. However as terrible as this system is, it's still better than what could be, they could've just locked those mods behind playing the game during their release with no option to earn them after the fact. None of those mods are NECESSARY. The rest of your points... It's literally the game. Grinding for high tier mats, exotics, etc. That's the game. If you don't like it, fine, but that's not arbitrary and those things have never been more accessible than they are today. You used to have to raid or do high tier nightfalls to get those things. Now, you can literally turn some glimmer into cores and on up through the chain to the top tier materials. Exotics were super rare, now you can spend an afternoon in one ten minute activity and walk out with a ton of new ones.

Not necessary? Those mods are one of the most important aspects of buildmaking!

They certainly can be! But doing some build from a YouTube video isn't a necessity to play any part of the game.

Or you could buildcraft…

What purpose does it serve to lengthen play artificially for a resource they don’t even have mods to get more of. It cost 💯’s of thousands just to have access to a basic variety of builds while Ikora is extorting players. We’re talking about weeks of farming for glimmer. It’s stupid. And endgame that’s the problem there is no mid or beginning game it’s boring just patrols and bounties after campaigns. No one would point them towards endgame because it should be about skill not about basic things like mats. Imagine having a basic build no access to mods or masterworking so the mods you do have you can’t use and then a massively inflated glimmer cost on top of that. Your complaining about the same thing the economy is so bad that even glimmer in the early game is hard to get. I agree they shouldn’t be pointed toward endgame but as always power, mats, weapons etc all have to do with endgame. The majority of the enjoyable content is endgame everything else will be done in the first month or weeks for new players. All that holds them back is an unfair economy and access to mats and mods. They want to build like the rest of players but the massively overinflated cost and hard access to mats keeps them gravitating toward endgame. In the end everyone needs access to mats build crafting is too tall of an ask with the economy as it is and that’s some of the best parts of destiny.

Do they have a jump? A Grenade? A super? A class ability? A melee? Great. Everything else is a goal. To teach them each of those things as they earn them, so by the time they've unlocked everything they know what they like, or what is useful in different situations. It's not artificially lengthening play time. It's not stupid, it's the literal journey you're supposed to take through any game like this. In early content there is no need for builds. You're supposed to evolve through the content you're playing. Start with patrols, and campaigns, check out strikes, seasonal matchmade activities, eventually get to nightfalls and dungeons, and finally raids. It's supposed to take time, that is THE GAME. I don't have to imagine not having things as we've all been there. In D1 we had to level up and earn xp to unlock our abilities, from the very beginning. In vanilla D2 there was a currency specific to unlocking parts of your subclass. Everyone started with 0 currencies, and earned them through all the activities they've played, and those mats are in their most accessible state! Just because you proclaim that there's no beginning or midgame doesn't make it true. You're trying to ignore what that part of the game is, and dismiss it as stupid. Having access to everything, well stocked coffers, masterworked gear, fully curated builds and gear like.. those are goals, and getting there is the mid game. Every game starts you at zero. This is nothing new. This isn't predatory. This isn't f-d beyond belief. This is a video game, and this is how they are played. Glimmer is not hard to get, Every dreg that dies gives you glimmer. Every activity you do gives you glimmer. Anything you dismantle. Etc. Glimmer is ridiculously easy to come across. Hell, if you are desperate go farm for ten minutes picking up planetary mats and hand them in 20 at a time for 10k glimmer, ez pz. Yeah, that's right, farm planetary mats, but oh... is that predatory too? Are you so used to having everything that you forget that that's what we used to do? The only thing holding people back is their preconceived (or foisted upon) notions that they should have everything and do "hard stuff" day 1. Well that and you could argue the way they disseminate old seasonal mods, but that's only because they let you get them at all in the first place. That could be improved. But glimmer, and having to grow as a player and level your character, learn how to play etc, nah, That IS THE GAME.

Wow this is the most entitled elitist point of view. Patrols bounties the rat wheel of destiny needs to go. Worthless content I won’t or even mildly suggest anyone play. If you think patrols and bounties are going to keep a new player or watered down version of subclasses with massive price tags associated with the rest of it is good enough you’re beyond ignorant. The new light campaign is bottom shelf piss poor the lore massively fragmented no explanation and you think forcing a massive grind on top of the worst new player experience is where they should start. So many hurdles need to be overcome to even have a friend start and get to the place where they can play with you and most don’t make it they quit because nothing makes sense and the grind for basics is way too tall of an ask. Man you must really not like the word fair and really hate new players. Sounds pretty selfish but I don’t expect more from this community. Imagine feeling the need to make sure your opinion is heard and the new player experience stays garbage. 👍🏽 good on you man do you guardian.

[quote]Wow this is the most entitled elitist point of view. Patrols bounties the rat wheel of destiny needs to go. Worthless content I won’t or even mildly suggest anyone play. If you think patrols and bounties are going to keep a new player or watered down version of subclasses with massive price tags associated with the rest of it is good enough you’re beyond ignorant. The new light campaign is bottom shelf piss poor the lore massively fragmented no explanation and you think forcing a massive grind on top of the worst new player experience is where they should start. So many hurdles need to be overcome to even have a friend start and get to the place where they can play with you and most don’t make it they quit because nothing makes sense and the grind for basics is way too tall of an ask. Man you must really not like the word fair and really hate new players. Sounds pretty selfish but I don’t expect more from this community. Imagine feeling the need to make sure your opinion is heard and the new player experience stays garbage. 👍🏽 good on you man do you guardian.[/quote] Wanting people to be able to play and enjoy the whole game is elitist? Thinking that earning currency and levels is entitled? Are you high? If the grind is too tall an ask, no one would be play this game, no one would've stuck around. You can argue that sunsetting vanilla content hurt the story sure, but it didn't make the new character grind any worse. If anything it's made things far easier to earn and work towards. I don't hate fairness and definitely don't hate new players, I help them whenever I can. It's because I don't hate them, that I have these opinions. Selfish? Again, I ask, are you -blam!- high? You're trying to rob people of arguably the most enjoyable part of the game (ie the part where you just have fun and shoot aliens before the pressure of builds and endgame and roll farming grind etc), under the guise of fairness? Just because you've done everything and find it boring, now no one else ever would be able to be a fresh character? Nutty. Absolutely bonkers.

Your post are well articulate and are right on the money.

Thank you. I try!

Maybe you should try harder. Like I get what you're saying, but it's just wrong. Having to spend huge chunks of glimmer to Ikora with "quests" where the turn in is literally 6 inches from the quest giver? That's bullcrap gameplay and a big BIG missed opportunity for something actually engaging and organic.