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Edited by kellygreen45:
9/1/2022 1:47:50 PM
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No personal disrespect.
But you are simply getting a small taste of what average players experienced playing against you for the last 3 years under CBMM.
You are having to compete now if you want to win matches, rather than being allowed to dominate weaker players. Many of whom had little if any realistic chance to beat you.
The difference though is you have the skill to fight back, and the ability to compete.
What I’m hearing is that you don’t find this as enjoyable.
…and that’s the root issue here. The conflict between two irreconcilable definitions of fun. Those who enjoy competing against players of similar skill, versus those who enjoy dominating players of lesser skill.
One is competitive. The other is predatory.
The market is such that one game can no longer serve both. Which is why half of the Crucibles player base melted away over the last three years.
I’m always amazed at how so many high skill players expect average players to accept conditions that those same high skill players consider unacceptable for themselves.
English
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Edited by kellygreen45: 9/2/2022 5:40:50 PMBecause the experience that the CBMM advocates want REQUIRE players like you being in THEIR play list, while you’re choosing NOT to be there. As long as you have a choice, they don’t get what they want..and they’re unhappy. Giving them want requires you being forced into the CBMM list…and now (I assume) you’re unhappy. The situation isn’t complicated. It just requires accepting that making both factions happy isn’t possible. Ironically you have the right solution: Virginia and West Virgina are seperate states. Not separate cities in the same state. This game can’t please both factions and a divorce is needed.
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Edited by WatchTheWatcher: 9/1/2022 9:36:42 PMKelly’s not wrong though. A more interesting conversation could be had about why CBMM failed if it was supposed to match people randomly. I personally don’t think it did entirely match people randomly. At least it didn’t feel that way when the mode devolved into a chain of mercies and nobody playing.
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I feel like the CBMM/SBMM the topic take stage attention away from real issues. For me its definitely lobby balancing. I rarely encounter crazy skills players but I do have a lot of lopsided matches that are not fun on either side and it’s not because of the skill gap within the lobby.
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100% lobby balancing has been begged for by people like me for years and Bungie has refused to mention it. SBMM is another failed attempt at hand-waving magic and it won't fix any of the underlying PvP issues.
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I complain about for it for years now too. Even with the change it is still the same. I am average but I get dropped in lobbies where I feel like I fight alone as my team mates are almost always dead. It doesn’t feel like people of similar skill are in the lobby at all.
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Yeah - and peer to peer. And seasonal / loot incentives.
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Absolutely 100%. Dedicated servers and more loot incentives are required. Again, I've begged for these for YEARS, as have others. No dice. PvP's not allowed to have good loot locked behind a PvP test of skill because that's apparently toxic and elitist.
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I actually didn’t mind playing for Redrix or Lunas or NF. I burned out and never got Mountaintop.
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Edited by Desolator0: 9/2/2022 10:00:30 PMHaha I loved those grinds. Some of, if not the best fun I had in PvP to this day. Extremely tough, but equally rewarding, like any good PvP game with good loot should be. I was never good enough to earn Redrix's Claymore (which haunts me to this day), but I did improve as a player by the time the Broadsword rolled around.
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Same man. Same re the Claymore. Only one I never was able to get….
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I got the Broadsword not Claymore. That was just pure grinding.
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I forgot peer to peer which is probably the most important. Just good incentives for comp would be a decent start.
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Revive comp and you solve a great many problems of people getting mercy'd in Quickplay. Give the tryhards their playlist and loot to make it worth their time, and they'd play it all day.
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Fully agree. I prefer comp over quickplay as it feels less random but in Freelance team mate quality depends too much on the luck of the draw and that affects the outcome. I always thought team mates should have roughly the same amount of points but judging by some of the ‘bots’ playing it can not be the case.
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Edited by Lord Kielron: 9/1/2022 11:46:00 PMHe’s not exactly right either.
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Eight years of franchise history and engagement data would like a word with you….
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It’s kind of black and white to say that the mode can only make predators or regular players happy. Definitely provocative.
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Not what I said. I said that the root of the conflict (and why no compromise is possible) is because you have two factions whose definitions of fun are incompatible. Bungie has to compete in a shooter game market loaded with SBMM options. So failing to offer it in its basic game mode is a bad business move. They will lose(and have lost) players to other game. But give them an in-game option for SBMM, they will choose it…and those who want access to weaker players will complain. Bungie has tried to strike a compromise and it doesn’t work, because the players are unwilling to compromise. The bandwagoning against SBMM is already starting by better players…and (as usual) the complaints aren’t about bad connections or long MM times. It’s overwhelmingly about “sweaty matches”. The irony being that these are better conditions than these better players insist weaker players accept under CBMM.
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Skill varies randomly. The problem was the Pareto Principle (80/20 Rule) and Skill Creep. IOW high skill players were grossly over represented in the MM pool because they play more than other types of players. They created conditions that were hostile to players at the bottom of the skill curve. Driving those players out of the game. So the level of skill gets concentrated. So the top players become even more over represented. Then they create a hostile environment for the next lowest echelon of players. Eventually driving them out of the game, Rinse and Repeat. Result? The game slowly rots from the bottom up. As the play experience is absolute misery for who ever is at the bottom of the food chain…. …and over time the skill pool gets more and more concentrated, and matches get sweatier and sweatier for those at the top. Which is usually when the complaints of the devs “secretly” turning SBMM on start to appear. But this skill creep is what kept destroying Trials before the overhaul, and was causing 6v6 to slowly bleed out. As it lost half of its players during CBMM.
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Yeah - skill creep has been a feature of the Crucible. For sure.
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I mean neither of them are entirely [i]wrong[/i]. That's my point. And you make another good point. If CBMM was truly close to random, it would follow a skill distribution and it wouldn't be an awful experience for the average player. I guess what throws a wrench in that is stacks, players just there for bounties in lobbies with those trying to win, new players, etc. I think pure CBMM only works when everyone at least has the same mindset of winning and sticking through the mud to achieve the win. And let's be honest here, that is not present in every type of player. Last season there was 100% a player in a game that only cared about a seasonal challenge and didn't give a single crap about the outcome being on a team with someone willing to go through some serious BS to win. Those players just aren't compatible and it is inappropriate to put them in the same lobby, same way it is inappropriate to put several top 1% players in a fireteam against 6 random solos. It just won't work.
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[quote]Last season there was 100% a player in a game that only cared about a seasonal challenge and didn't give a single crap about the outcome being on a team with someone willing to go through some serious BS to win. Those players just aren't compatible and it is inappropriate to put them in the same lobby, same way it is inappropriate to put several top 1% players in a fireteam against 6 random solos. It just won't work.[/quote] We know this player exists because thousands of them were willing to quite literally jump off of cliffs in Trials for free loot.
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Bounty incentives really need to match the objective in each mode. There’s part of me that thinks we’re all in a funhouse talking about skill. Part of the problem is that players have no easy way to know and understand their skill rating. Without knowing it, they can’t really know how or what to improve. If we use kd or kda as a skill proxy, player stats then depend on how good their teammates and connections are. Which gets back to the question of how to account for stacks. And the fact that Bungie is only now trying to get reliable data on each player’s latency to every other player instead of the just the leader.
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See and that last bit makes me question the entire last few seasons of CBMM. How could it be true CBMM if they only took the leader into consideration? Better yet, how can the new system account for connection better if they never measured it properly in the first place?
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Way more complicated than that. But also way simpler than that. The root of the issue is what Bungie talked about weeks ago when they announced SBMM return. The Pareto Principle and Skill Creep had created intolerable conditions for players in the bottom half of the skill curve. So the game was losing players, and was so hostile to new players that it was stagnating. The only hope to try to get the game growing again was to do what they did. The only hope to match matches more competitive was to do what they did.
