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Edited by kellygreen45:
9/1/2022 1:47:50 PM
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No personal disrespect.
But you are simply getting a small taste of what average players experienced playing against you for the last 3 years under CBMM.
You are having to compete now if you want to win matches, rather than being allowed to dominate weaker players. Many of whom had little if any realistic chance to beat you.
The difference though is you have the skill to fight back, and the ability to compete.
What I’m hearing is that you don’t find this as enjoyable.
…and that’s the root issue here. The conflict between two irreconcilable definitions of fun. Those who enjoy competing against players of similar skill, versus those who enjoy dominating players of lesser skill.
One is competitive. The other is predatory.
The market is such that one game can no longer serve both. Which is why half of the Crucibles player base melted away over the last three years.
I’m always amazed at how so many high skill players expect average players to accept conditions that those same high skill players consider unacceptable for themselves.
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They aren’t excited. Trust me. The bandwagoning against SBMM has already started.
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The problem streamers have, especially PVP streamers, is SBMM hurts their ability to perform well. If they don't perform well, fewer people will watch their videos, and they won't make as much money. Streamers have a monetary incentive to remove SBMM, and you can't listen to anyone with such a blatant incentive swaying their decision. What's best for streamers isn't necessarily what's best for the game.
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Agreed. They need to look dominant for their audience, who can’t/don’t appreciate high level play among people of similar skill. It took Bungie years to figure out that these guys had a very different agenda from the average player, and couldn’t be trusted to represent the average player.
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On the other hand though, as more players become interested in Crcuible, more players watch PVP videos.
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That requires mature, long-term thinking. The problem is that most platforms reward short-term thinking and short-term results. It’s why so many of these guys burn themselves out and have to take extended breaks to recover.
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The very business of being a successful streamer/YouTuber requires a short-term mindset. That's why clickbait is popular, algorithm and trend-chasing are favored, and rushing out ~10-minute videos each day to keep engagement levels up is the standard, regardless of your personal health or the long-term success of your channel. This is why so many of them desperately push out video after video, then run out of content, burn themselves out, then complain the game is dry within week 1. Even worse when they access immediate, instant access to all of the game's hardest/elite content because they have communities of fanboys tripping over each other to carry them through GMs and Master Raids. Long-term YouTubers tend to not be gaming YouTubers. This is a very oxymoronic way of thinking because if you base your channel on one game, it's in your best interest to want to see it succeed so you can keep profiting off of other people's work.
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Hence The Tragedy of The Commons. The emotions of short-term gratification trump rational long-term self-interest. Which is why it’s a bad idea to cater to a minority of your customer base. Especially if you can’t monetize that minority and their heightened interest in your product. Because they wind doing things—-or insisting you do things—-that alienate your core customers base. 😎
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[quote]The conflict between two irreconcilable definitions of fun. Those who enjoy competing against players of similar skill, versus those who enjoy dominating players of lesser skill. One is competitive. The other is predatory. The market is such that one game can no longer serve both.[/quote] Yo, man - that is exactly what you said. Please don’t dissemble. You’ve either intentionally (or obliviously) pejoratively ascribed the worst intentions - predatory abusive behavior - to crucible player group A and neutral intentions to player group B. So how are the readers here supposed to sort themselves in response to your social theory if they have an objectively bad experience with SBMM and they don’t like it? Does that de facto make them abusive predators? Now, I’ll give you credit for the hot take - it did get attention. And I do think there are definitely a-holes in the lobby who get off on spawn trapping their opponents and take full advantage of the netcode. These are the people posting “your opinions don’t matter because you’re trash” nonsense. But I think the gasoline from the -blam!- you threw kinda got all over everything.
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Edited by kellygreen45: 9/2/2022 3:33:10 PMI’m calling it what it is. You have two incompatible visions of fun that are making this situation unsolvable. Those whose definition of fun revolves around competing with those of similar skill. Fun is shared. Versus those whose definition of fun revolves around being allowed to dominate weaker players in non-competitive engagements. It is predatory because one group has fun at the expense of another. One party has fun, while another does not. Bungie’s skill data shows this very clearly. At a skill gap of 600 matches are non-competitive because it’s statistically impossible for the weaker player to win against the stronger player. CBMM was [i]routinely [/i] creating lobbies with skill gaps 50% larger than that. The issue here is that you have a group of players who simply who don’t want to see this. This is a classic “Tragedy of the Commons” situation where a group of people exploit/abuse a shared resource (over graze shared land). Because it’s in their individual short-term interests to do so. But doing so ruins that resource for everyone else, and themselves in the long term. (In this case, effectively killing off the game).
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Aren’t there other design choices available to Bungie here that might normalize the skill distribution? What are those options? Personally, I feel like they need some implementation of SBMM. The game became unplayable. But what else could they do? Random thoughts: - Make Clash the default “base” lobby instead of Control (bounty incentives for slaying are aligned vs. non-aligned with some objectives) - Loot incentives (Ascendant Shard each time rank is reset or every second reset or add targeted farming to Crucible) - Make Comp a ranked playlist with actual rewards - Really take a hard look at whether some people have by design or default been privileged with a latency advantage - Sandbox adjustments that narrow the skill gap?
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Those other options would be just as unacceptable. The issue is you have one faction who wants a competitive environment, and another who wants to have a non-competitive one. The Sweaties let their flocks over-graze the land….
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I was going to comment about how stupid this was but looks like 244 other people did that.
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More like 5. Most people agreed with me, actually. Sorry (not).
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[quote]More like 5. Most people agreed with me, actually. Sorry (not).[/quote] I agree with you.
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From using my actual eyes I can see you are pulling that out of your -blam!-
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Go abuse someone else. Muted. Second one today…..
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Edited by Wes: 9/2/2022 3:12:19 PMGod kellygreen threads are always pure gold. It is always kellygreen arguing, with his opponent missing the point, and his opponent arguing, with kellygreen missing the point. Two brick walls. Every. Single. Time. But I guess that's actually the trend with this SBMM discussion. Nobody wants to step into the others' shoes and operate with even a shred of sympathy. And those that do, get put in the "you're just a sweat that wants to farm" or "git gud" categories before they are ever REALLY listened to. No wonder I don't see Bungie employees on these forums anymore.
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Edited by twey_ironside: 9/2/2022 9:53:49 AMExactly this. It would help to have a discussion to find a solution for both sides …and also talk about the true issues in Crucible like lobby balancing and spawning.
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Edited by Desolator0: 9/3/2022 2:58:46 AMMaybe if Bungie cared to bring actual community members together for once who weren't famous streamers or artists, like they used to do. But that would require more effort than a solicitation post on Twitter. We're simply not famous enough to be worth noticing. I, for one, would love to give my 2 cents on this, as well as any topic. Hell, I would do it for [i]free[/i] if I'm taken seriously and listened to.
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I hope they will but I am still shocked how much controversy is sparked here by you just giving an account of your experience.
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Haha "controversy" is a light term. Feel free to read the raw abuse I've received. It's absolutely unprecedented in my time on these forums. I wonder if the Ninjas will care to ban people here as they did to me in the past for nothing near this level of harassment. People are going out of their way to stalk my stat pages and report on my K/D in the weeks ahead, it's just so pathetic dude. Good PvP players are simply not allowed to state their experiences on these forums because these forums are almost solely populated by casuals who hate us. It goes against the narrative of "SBMM good".
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[quote]Maybe if Bungie cared to bring actual community members together for once who weren't famous streamers or artists, like they used to do. But that would require more effort than a solicitation post on Twitter. We're simply not famous enough to be worth noticing. I, for once, would love to give my 2 cents on this, as well as any topic. Hell, I would do it for [i]free[/i] if I'm taken seriously and listened to.[/quote] ❤️
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Edited by kellygreen45: 9/2/2022 2:08:39 PMThere is no solution that will please both sides. Bungie has been searching for one 8 years and hasn’t found one. The “fun” that many CBMM advocates want involves being given matches against much weaker opponents…and conditions that are not enjoyable to those weaker players. The problem is that those weaker players have a LOT of other SBMM options in the market. So they don’t have to tolerate being used for the enjoyment of better players. Give them an in-game choice for SBMM, they consistently choose it, because it’s more enjoyable. While the CBMM players get upset because they aren’t getting access to the weaker players they want. Force everyone into CBMM? The weaker players simply stop playing. Which is why the player base is half the size it was when Bungie removed SBMM from 6v6. This is what “irreconcilable differences” looks like. Each side wants conditions that the other considers intolerable.
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Why is the solution so complicated? SBMM modes for non-PvP mains like myself, and CBMM modes for those that want that experience. Yes, it effectively splits the crucible in two, but sounds like what we need. Virginia and West Virginia.
