[quote]Warlocks have always had better kits with more bonuses. All they did was give those bonuses to other classes. Warlocks have always had more unique abilities so it's pretty hard to come up with something new[/quote] That's literal nonsense. Void hunters gave more abilities than all of warlock combined. I hate how counting is optional when people talk about warlocks. Just say what you want regardless of how untrue it is.

Hunters can go invis wow that's it that's all we had that was super unique. Warlocks had overcharged grenades, devour, and bloom explosions on void kills. What else did hunters have ?

[quote]Hunters can go invis wow that's it that's all we had that was super unique. Warlocks had overcharged grenades, devour, and bloom explosions on void kills. What else did hunters have ?[/quote] Who uses overcharge grenades? Everybody can cause elemental explosions. Everybody has devour now. Nice try.

I'm talking about before the 3.0... Warlocks had better kits. Which is why it felt like they gained nothing from 3.0s they already had more stuff than the other classes. You guys got an upgrade to void and solar. Titans and Hunters had to get new stuff because we had like one thing our classes did. Hunters only really had invis.

[quote]I'm talking about before the 3.0... Warlocks had better kits. Which is why it felt like they gained nothing from 3.0s they already had more stuff than the other classes. You guys got an upgrade to void and solar. Titans and Hunters had to get new stuff because we had like one thing our classes did. Hunters only really had invis.[/quote] Everybody had good kits before 3.0, it's just that everybody also had bad kits and for some dumb reason, everyone focused on the bad kits and not the good ones unless it was warlock, where it was reversed. Before arc 3.0 comes out, go into a DSC with 6 warlocks and use only chaos reach on atraks Then go in with 6 titans with thundercrash and tell me how the warlock kit was better. It isn't better. The only thing we had that was better was well of radiance. Everything else was mediocre or worse.

Thundercrash was what carried that Titan subclass. That's not a fair comparison. Warlocks chaos reach kot had way more stuff that was actually useful. You Didn't mention hunters arc... Oh that's right because our super and abilities were awful in pve.

Fist of Havoc is literally OP af in PvP. It lasts forever and it instakills everything, and is the only roaming super that does that.

You mentioned DSC now you're jumping to crucible with fist of havoc and not Thundercrash as an example. You're making no sense. Warlock kit of chaos reach worked in both pve and PvP pretty darn well. You're not gonna see fist of havoc in pve. You might see stormtrance as well but not fist of havoc

[quote]You mentioned DSC now you're jumping to crucible with fist of havoc and not Thundercrash as an example. You're making no sense. Warlock kit of chaos reach worked in both pve and PvP pretty darn well. You're not gonna see fist of havoc in pve. You might see stormtrance as well but not fiat of havoc[/quote] We were talking about kits. If you want to narrow that down to DSC, Titans have the best kit out of all 3 classes. However, if you want to talk about kits, you have to be prepared to discuss how they're used in the game. Thundercrash is God tier DPS. You then returned with saying that it was the only good thing in arc titans kit. I then returned with no, that fist of havoc was also insanely useful, just in a different activity. That means that there are at least two really good uses for titan arc kit. PvP and boss DPS. Since PvP and boss fights are such large parts of the game, your conclusion that arc titan was only good for one thing is incorrect.

Perhaps it's my fault but when I mean kit I mean kit I mean one of the 3 diamonds. As You can't use ballistic slam on fist of havoc for example. Striker trees we're good for PvP and nothing more. Thundercrash was just that Thindercrash just the super was really good. That's it. Compare that to warlocks who had a bunch of useful bonuses sprinkled through out their a diamonds. Chaos Reach was a good super with other relevant bonuses. The same applies to the stormstrances.

[quote]Perhaps it's my fault but when I mean kit I mean kit I mean one of the 3 diamonds. As You can't use ballistic slam on fist of havoc for example. Striker trees we're good for PvP and nothing more. Thundercrash was just that Thindercrash just the super was really good. That's it. Compare that to warlocks who had a bunch of useful bonuses sprinkled through out their a diamonds. Chaos Reach was a good super with other relevant bonuses. The same applies to the stormstrances.[/quote] Okay, now that we're on the same page. Our buffs aren't as good as you think they are. Stormcaller doesn't have good passives. They look good on paper but they're super niche. Like with Crown of Tempests, I can run faster as a stormcaller. Literally only use it on queenswalk in Last Wish. I use the bottom tree so infrequently that I don't even know what it does completely, because it's not useful anywhere. Icarus Dash in pve is only good for jump puzzles. Devour is only good if you're fighting adds by yourself and there are a lot of them. Granted, it's amazing for soloing dungeons, but how often do people solo dungeons? 8 times out of 10, I'd happily take a larger DPS burst than running fast or Icarus dash. When Bungo nerfed geomags and then chaos reach as a whole, it really stopped being good at anything. It's been a bottom tier tree ever since. As a warlock with over 2k hours in game and a top 500 raid runner (at least for a few more days, went from 363rd to 499th in a month, I'll be under 500 by the end of the week), I almost never use arc for anything. Last time I use chaos reach was proving grounds GM back when the strat was double Ursa titans so I could super far away enemies without wasting ammo. I play with a lot of PvE sweats, and they're always using Thundercrash or golden gun because it's quick damage and then they go ham with heavy weapons. The combo wildly over damages a chaos reach with geomags, by a very, very large margin. I have run some funky builds to do raids fast or to do duos/trios. Imagine my surprise when Verity's Brow is the key to 1 phasing atheon with only two people! However, 0% of those builds have ever included arc warlocks. The entire subclass is built for beginner level content, not endgame. The changes made in the TWAB don't seem to change that.

I get that dps is all that matters sometimes but it's more of you guys still had those buffs and bonuses that other classes didn't. The 3.0s have been sharing of bonuses and buffs but the other classes haven't had anything or much to contribute because we had nothing compared to warlocks pre 3.0. For example titans and hunters on arc we don't really have anything special like chain lightning, ionic traces, Arc soul nothing of that sort. Titans had blinding as a thing but that's all they had that was "unique" hunters don't have jack -blam!- for arc unique traits. In arc 3.0 warlocks simply get an upgrade to their already solid abilities. Hunters and titans having had nothing special are getting the most benefit. It seems unfair but that's because you guys already had arc traits and bonuses. We just had abilities that were arc flavor.

[quote]I get that dps is all that matters sometimes but it's more of you guys still had those buffs and bonuses that other classes didn't. The 3.0s have been sharing of bonuses and buffs but the other classes haven't had anything or much to contribute because we had nothing compared to warlocks pre 3.0. For example titans and hunters on arc we don't really have anything special like chain lightning, ionic traces, Arc soul nothing of that sort. Titans had blinding as a thing but that's all they had that was "unique" hunters don't have jack -blam!- for arc unique traits. In arc 3.0 warlocks simply get an upgrade to their already solid abilities. Hunters and titans having had nothing special are getting the most benefit. It seems unfair but that's because you guys already had arc traits and bonuses. We just had abilities that were arc flavor.[/quote] Arc staff can deflect supers and heavy weapons. That's not nothing. Also there is no evidence that warlocks get an upgrade to anything. All the twab says is that stormchaser would be combined but they did the same to dawn blade and it sucks now. So, you give everybody the passives, but warlocks don't get any of the active abilities from other classes. That's not a fair trade. Warlocks had more passives (even if they weren't as good as other class mains think they are) because we didn't have a huge variety of actions. Other classes have more actions because they get less passives. However as history has shown, the active abilities far outweigh the passives that warlocks have. Now, titans and hunters have the active and passive traits, and warlocks only have shared passives now. We didn't get any of the other active abilities from other classes in any of the 3.0 overhauls. No invis, no hammer that you can pick up for infinite charged melee, no throwing knives, no exploding knives, no sunspots, no supers that can do multiple things (void titan), no deflection (arc staff), nothing. How's that fair?

You can't compare melees and supers as those will always be unique to their own class. You have the arc soul and melee that chains lightning by default and the little ball which I'm not entirely sure what it does besides damage. You guys have always had more of a focus on uptime for abilities and buffs. Arc 3.0 isn't out yet we don't know who'll benefit more from the fragments just yet. Plus You did get one new thing which is that melee teleport thing. Your Stormtrance got a buff and your melees now benefit from being amped. You get bonus chain lightning and a multi hit ball. The updates not out yet theirs still plenty of unknowns. We don't know what will get the most Jolt or Amplify who can use it the best etc...

[quote]You can't compare melees and supers as those will always be unique to their own class. You have the arc soul and melee that chains lightning by default and the little ball which I'm not entirely sure what it does besides damage. You guys have always had more of a focus on uptime for abilities and buffs. Arc 3.0 isn't out yet we don't know who'll benefit more from the fragments just yet. Plus You did get one new thing which is that melee teleport thing. Your Stormtrance got a buff and your melees now benefit from being amped. You get bonus chain lightning and a multi hit ball. The updates not out yet theirs still plenty of unknowns. We don't know what will get the most Jolt or Amplify who can use it the best etc...[/quote] Stormtrance got combined, it did not get a buff. It has the exact same perks as before. Passives were the unique traits warlocks had on our subclasses. Without them, we have no unique traits. So if our unique traits can be ripped out and passed around, why can't we have a throwing knife or a sunspot? It's the same thing. Our identity was gutted, but because it's not something you proc with a button it's okay to you, but you draw the line when it requires a button press despite being exactly the same importance to class identity.

You guys had buffs and unique abilities beforehand. Now everyone gets buffs but you still keep your arc soul your unique melees and supers. You're not even acknowledging the teleport melee you're getting. Knives are a hunter thing why would warlocks use them? They'd probably think it's too crude so they stick to lightning balls and what not. It doesn't even fit the aesthetic of the class. You don't see hunters having arc souls. I get that you guys didn't really get anything but that just goes to show how well rounded your class was already compared to the others.

[quote]You guys had buffs and unique abilities beforehand. Now everyone gets buffs but you still keep your arc soul your unique melees and supers. You're not even acknowledging the teleport melee you're getting. Knives are a hunter thing why would warlocks use them? They'd probably think it's too crude so they stick to lightning balls and what not. It doesn't even fit the aesthetic of the class. You don't see hunters having arc souls. I get that you guys didn't really get anything but that just goes to show how well rounded your class was already compared to the others.[/quote] Yeah, can't wait to slide melee in a GM and immediately get murdered. That's new light level stuff, and it's not worth an aspect slot. Just like heat rises, no one's gonna use it because it's so niche that's it's not good. Remember, this is an aspect we're talking about, a core piece of the subclass is a sliding melee. The absurdity of that statement speaks for itself. Hunters don't need an aspect for throwing knives. Titans don't need an aspect for recoverable hammer. It does not show how well rounded the class was, it just shows how lazy Bungo is when it comes to warlocks.

Dude hunters literally had one of our melees turned into an aspect. An existing melee was turned into a melee. The slide Arc melee. Golden gun and blade barrage need an aspect to be good. I don't see you Warlocks needing an aspect to launch lightning balls. Your super doesn't need an aspect to ionic blink and proc landfall post 3.0. Chaos reach doesn't need an aspect to be good like blade barrage. The only thing unique about solar Hunter is Gunpowder Gamble. Every class has melees, class abilities, supers, can go radiant, heal, scorch, and ignite. Warlocks have enhanced grenades and heat rises. If you don't like the class that's fine. If you ask me you're really fixated on the melees. Why are you a warlock? Doesn't seem like you even like the warlock aesthetic. You keep asking for a hammer melee or throwing knife which doesn't make any sense on warlock. Hunters shouldn't be throwing lightning balls, void ones, or snap fire either.