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Edited by kellygreen45:
3/29/2021 11:25:56 AM
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The TLDR of my post? [i][b]You're absolutely right and for the right reasons. [/b] [/i] Which is why Trials self-destructs whenever it is introduced to the game, and why Bungie basically is at the point where they have to BRIBE us with tons of loot to play PVP. (I played IB for the first time in about a year, and that event is EMBARASSINGLY generous wtih loot compared to the rest of the game. [i]Seriously, Bungie[/i].....?)
The problem is a simple one.
You have two IRRECONCIABLE views on what constitutes "fun" that are warring with one another over control of the PVP side of the game.
You've given voice to---and a good description of---those who see fun in actual competition. IOW, getting to play against people of similar skill level....but for higher stakes as one climbs the latter of skill. In this setting, playing people of higher skill is NOT a "punishment"....its the REWARD for "getting good". (As you said, you don't turn pros loose on kindergarteners...and then call that "competitive")
The OTHER faction is what I just call "pub stomp culture". Which we have Call of Duty and early Halo to thank for that. A generation ago, internet infrastructure was so poor, and connection speeds so slow, that CBMM was a necessary evil to get these games to work properly. So feeding weaker players to stronger players was an unavoidable evil...and since there were few options....people tolerated it.
But the result is that you now have a generation of shooter gamers who define "fun" not in terms of getting to play against people of their own skill level for bragging rights. But instead in terms of their ability to DOMINATE weaker players. In short, they like to "win"...but they don't like to compete...and they feel that the game owes them success regardless of what effort level they feel like putting out on a given day. (In sports terms that attitude is called "Throwing your hat on the field (baseball) or "Mailing it in (golf)."
These players expect success whenever they show up, but only want to put out effort and compete (sweat) on THEIR terms and when THEY feel like it. d Many here actually view having to play people of their own skill level to be a "punishment".....while they hypocritically call for CBMM....and consign the vast majority of players to WORSE conditions than the ones they deem "unfair" and "unreasonable" for themselves.
Unfortunately, I don't think you can resolve this conflict within one game, in the current climate. The Devs just need to decided WHICH faction they wish to cater to....and have the stones to tell the other to either suck-it-up and deal with it....or go play a different game.
As you noted, the RPG gamer who makes up the backbone of the Destiny PVE player base simply isn't going to tolerate this predatory, "get good" environment where they get served up for the enjoyment of stronger players, with no regard and NO RESPECT for the experience they are having playing the game. They won't tolerate it....and they dont' have to.
There are more enjoyable parts of this game.....and a CRAP TON of more enjoyable games out there (Outriders....)
So ever since Bungie has gone to CBMM, this game has struggled to get PVP engagement. This is an IRON Banner week...and traditionally that meant that players who were typically PVE players would flood the Crucible in search of themed loot and to "catch up" progression-wise if you were a solo player.
But the IB experience now is so MISERABLE with the combination of CBMM and the "lock out" mechanic, that probably 60-70 percent of matches are mercied. Many before you even play long enough to get your super for the first time.
Result? IB participation is WAY down. It an effective loot pinata, but its an absolute shit-show of a pvp game mode. An absolute **garbage** experience for anyone looking to enjoy competitive play....and I'm not some kid who uses that term lightly.
Yesterday, ALL of Crucible only got about 585 K players. That is about what Crucible used to AVERAGE everyday before Bungie forced CBMM on all of 6v6....and its FAR below the peaks of 800K that IB would usually drive Crucible engagement up to.
So why is Bungie doing it?
IMO, [i]Google Stadia[/i].
The Stadia players base (7.6K) is simply too small to support any kind of SBMM (2.6K in PvP)....and Bungie is unwilling to anger Google by calling attention to the low player numbers on what is considered one of that platforms flagship games.....and is unwilling to handle that platform differently.
So the entire franchise gets stuck with CBMM to meet the needs of a single, badly underperforming platform.
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I 100% agree with this.
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Sometimes I agree with you sometimes I don’t but in this instance you completely hit the nail on the head. Great summary
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[quote]The TLDR of my post? [i][b]You're absolutely right and for the right reasons. [/b] [/i] Which is why Trials self-destructs whenever it is introduced to the game, and why Bungie basically is at the point where they have to BRIBE us with tons of loot to play PVP. (I played IB for the first time in about a year, and that event is EMBARASSINGLY generous wtih loot compared to the rest of the game. [i]Seriously, Bungie[/i].....?) The problem is a simple one. You have two IRRECONCIABLE views on what constitutes "fun" that are warring with one another over control of the PVP side of the game. You've given voice to---and a good description of---those who see fun in actual competition. IOW, getting to play against people of similar skill level....but for higher stakes as one climbs the latter of skill. In this setting, playing people of higher skill is NOT a "punishment"....its the REWARD for "getting good". (As you said, you don't turn pros loose on kindergarteners...and then call that "competitive") The OTHER faction is what I just call "pub stomp culture". Which we have Call of Duty and early Halo to thank for that. A generation ago, internet infrastructure was so poor, and connection speeds so slow, that CBMM was a necessary evil to get these games to work properly. So feeding weaker players to stronger players was an unavoidable evil...and since there were few options....people tolerated it. But the result is that you now have a generation of shooter gamers who define "fun" not in terms of getting to play against people of their own skill level for bragging rights. But instead in terms of their ability to DOMINATE weaker players. In short, they like to "win"...but they don't like to compete...and they feel that the game owes them success regardless of what effort level they feel like putting out on a given day. (In sports terms that attitude is called "Throwing your hat on the field (baseball) or "Mailing it in (golf)." These players expect success whenever they show up, but only want to put out effort and compete (sweat) on THEIR terms and when THEY feel like it. d Many here actually view having to play people of their own skill level to be a "punishment".....while they hypocritically call for CBMM....and consign the vast majority of players to WORSE conditions than the ones they deem "unfair" and "unreasonable" for themselves. Unfortunately, I don't think you can resolve this conflict within one game, in the current climate. The Devs just need to decided WHICH faction they wish to cater to....and have the stones to tell the other to either suck-it-up and deal with it....or go play a different game. As you noted, the RPG gamer who makes up the backbone of the Destiny PVE player base simply isn't going to tolerate this predatory, "get good" environment where they get served up for the enjoyment of stronger players, with no regard and NO RESPECT for the experience they are having playing the game. They won't tolerate it....and they dont' have to. There are more enjoyable parts of this game.....and a CRAP TON of more enjoyable games out there (Outriders....) So ever since Bungie has gone to CBMM, this game has struggled to get PVP engagement. This is an IRON Banner week...and traditionally that meant that players who were typically PVE players would flood the Crucible in search of themed loot and to "catch up" progression-wise if you were a solo player. But the IB experience now is so MISERABLE with the combination of CBMM and the "lock out" mechanic, that probably 60-70 percent of matches are mercied. Many before you even play long enough to get your super for the first time. Result? IB participation is WAY down. It an effective loot pinata, but its an absolute shit-show of a pvp game mode. An absolute **garbage** experience for anyone looking to enjoy competitive play....and I'm not some kid who uses that term lightly. Yesterday, ALL of Crucible only got about 585 K players. That is about what Crucible used to AVERAGE everyday before Bungie forced CBMM on all of 6v6....and its FAR below the peaks of 800K that IB would usually drive Crucible engagement up to. So why is Bungie doing it? IMO, [i]Google Stadia[/i]. The Stadia players base (7.6K) is simply too small to support any kind of SBMM (2.6K in PvP)....and Bungie is unwilling to anger Google by calling attention to the low player numbers on what is considered one of that platforms flagship games.....and is unwilling to handle that platform differently. So the entire franchise gets stuck with CBMM to meet the needs of a single, badly underperforming platform.[/quote] True a 1000000%
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Two very true and accurate posts above👆
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Bit of a false dichotomy you got there there, ain't it?
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No. Because I didn't say that everyone fit into those two factions. They are just the most influential....and there is no real basis for compromise.
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[quote]Unfortunately, I don't think you can resolve this conflict within one game, in the current climate. The Devs just need to decided WHICH faction they wish to cater to....and have the stones to tell the other to either suck-it-up and deal with it....or go play a different game.[/quote] I think Bungie eventually has to tell players who only want to pub stomp that they don't get to do it any more. But, I don't think the solution is the same SBMM that we had before, as that [b]is[/b] unfair to many because it creates worse connections than we have now. Maybe just broadening the search so that about 33% of the player base are candidates for a single match.
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[quote][quote]Unfortunately, I don't think you can resolve this conflict within one game, in the current climate. The Devs just need to decided WHICH faction they wish to cater to....and have the stones to tell the other to either suck-it-up and deal with it....or go play a different game.[/quote] I think Bungie eventually has to tell players who only want to pub stomp that they don't get to do it any more. But, I don't think the solution is the same SBMM that we had before, as that [b]is[/b] unfair to many because it creates worse connections than we have now. Maybe just broadening the search so that about 33% of the player base are candidates for a single match.[/quote] What about a two pass system? First you do a connection based pass then a skill based pass from those players?
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That's exactly what they did with the last freelance iron banner. I felt like it was slightly better than before. They had to turn it off for teams due to technical issues. I don't see how it could work anyways since they can't divide Fireteam.
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[quote]You have two IRRECONCIABLE views on what constitutes "fun" that are warring with one another over control of the [b]PVP side of the game[/b].[/quote] The thing I don't understand is why something like this is even up for debate when you are basically saying yourself that it shouldn't be. Its PvP, there really shouldn't be any consideration of opinions that say it should be turned into something its not. [quote]You've given voice to---and a good description of---those who see fun in actual competition. IOW, getting to play against people of similar skill level....but for higher stakes as one climbs the latter of skill. In this setting, playing people of higher skill is NOT a "punishment"....its the REWARD for "getting good". (As you said, you don't turn pros loose on kindergarteners...and then call that "competitive") The OTHER faction is what I just call "pub stomp culture". Which we have Call of Duty and early Halo to thank for that. A generation ago, internet infrastructure was so poor, and connection speeds so slow, that CBMM was a necessary evil to get these games to work properly. So feeding weaker players to stronger players was an unavoidable evil...and since there were few options....people tolerated it.[/quote] This is the problem with powerful voices and their drastic misunderstandings of the way PvP works. The closest Destiny can get to what you describe in your first case is the last way SBMM people want the game to work. You most definitely do not just have players handed to you with no increase in difficulty. People cannot be making these statements when they've never actually played into the parts of the game they are talking about. If you try, you progress in difficulty under CBMM in a far, far more natural way than SBMM ever could. And I know this is true because I know there is next to NOTHING about SBMM that is about gradually increasing difficulty. [quote]Unfortunately, I don't think you can resolve this conflict within one game, in the current climate. The Devs just need to decided WHICH faction they wish to cater to....and have the stones to tell the other to either suck-it-up and deal with it....or go play a different game.[/quote] The political pandering to different little factions in this game doesn't help anything. It doesn't help when anyone does that. Not Bungie or the people who think not having any idea how PvP works should be considered as valuable as having an idea or at least trying to gain an understanding of what its doing. I do agree that the conflict might not be able to be resolved. I disagree with the reasons for why people say the Devs are doing these things. A lot of the reasons they make the decisions they do are based on technical realities combined with the realization of a vision. That vision is not realized by breaking the game for certain people then telling them to watch streamers on youtube if they want to see the game working correctly. Its not a predatory environment. You simply don't have to play PvP. Its just that easy. What's important is that it be a PvP in the first place. [quote]So ever since Bungie has gone to CBMM, this game has struggled to get PVP engagement. This is an IRON Banner week...and traditionally that meant that players who were typically PVE players would flood the Crucible in search of themed loot and to "catch up" progression-wise if you were a solo player.[/quote] Again, stuff that's just not true that people say because other's say it too. [quote]Yesterday, ALL of Crucible only got about 585 K players. That is about what Crucible used to AVERAGE everyday before Bungie forced CBMM on all of 6v6....and its FAR below the peaks of 800K that IB would usually drive Crucible engagement up to.[/quote] You are smarter than to be doing this nonsense. OH MY GOD! And I literally got to the Stadia part after reading everything else. Oh, Bungie please. BUNGIE PLEASE just... I can see why you may have come to the conclusion you did. But the fact that that's the conclusion you've come to should call the other things you say about the way PvP works into question.
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Wow. All that and you still said nothing of relevance. Just insults, baseless assertions, and strawman arguments.
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"Insults," so I guess you don't even notice what you've been doing. Just look at the way you speak of the people who are not a part of your in-group. None of that is important though. It would take way more words than that for me to try to tell people what is going on with PvP and for some reason they seem to avoid those parts of what I'm saying. The fact of the matter is that the way forward simply cannot be to remove Destiny from the Destiny that some people get to play. Blame Bungie all day for that, its no one's fault but theirs. But for them to make this awesome game that's progressively getting awesomer while the people who complain the most have no idea what they've actually been doing, and then say "hey, well because of some nonsense overly-larped "requirements" you will now recieve much less Destiny" is kind of hard for someone who has voluntarily and happily spent almost 21000 matches of their life playing PvP to take. But its kind of Bungie's fault. They want to make this game this awesome then remove awesome from it for ridiculous reasons that are only reasons because people agree they are. Almost nothing that people who are for SBMM say about the game is true. When I say this I am being dead serious, I'm not trying to start an argument. People are so uninformed and just going off of the fact that other people will agree with them that its bad for the game. Not trying to be arrogant but a certain point I have to protect my ability to receive the awesome. Especially when the people who are trying to steal it will never think PvP is awesome no matter what and are so wrong that it can't be excused any longer. This game has been turned all kinds of inside out trying to make a certain group happy and they don't even know that it has. All complaints and no paying of actual attention and its gotten old.
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[quote]"Insults," so I guess you don't even notice what you've been doing. Just look at the way you speak of the people who are not a part of your in-group. None of that is important though. It would take way more words than that for me to try to tell people what is going on with PvP and for some reason they seem to avoid those parts of what I'm saying. The fact of the matter is that the way forward simply cannot be to remove Destiny from the Destiny that some people get to play. Blame Bungie all day for that, its no one's fault but theirs. But for them to make this awesome game that's progressively getting awesomer while the people who complain the most have no idea what they've actually been doing, and then say "hey, well because of some nonsense overly-larped "requirements" you will now recieve much less Destiny" is kind of hard for someone who has voluntarily and happily spent almost 21000 matches of their life playing PvP to take. But its kind of Bungie's fault. They want to make this game this awesome then remove awesome from it for ridiculous reasons that are only reasons because people agree they are. Almost nothing that people who are for SBMM say about the game is true. When I say this I am being dead serious, I'm not trying to start an argument. People are so uninformed and just going off of the fact that other people will agree with them that its bad for the game. Not trying to be arrogant but a certain point I have to protect my ability to receive the awesome. Especially when the people who are trying to steal it will never think PvP is awesome no matter what and are so wrong that it can't be excused any longer. This game has been turned all kinds of inside out trying to make a certain group happy and they don't even know that it has. All complaints and no paying of actual attention and its gotten old.[/quote] The funny thing is you have spent 21000 matches in destiny pvp,how and why,destiny pvp is 🗑 because its tied to a looter shooter and inherently in balanced. There is Lots of better pvp experiences out there. You destiny pvper's are wired up wrong with your silly arguments about cbmm and sbmm. You just want to protect easy mode matches against low skill/new players,clutching on your meta loadouts,and yes it's a crutch. I have been gaming years and I have played both sides of games. From UT 2K pvp to cod and battlefield, was always some sort of balance to pvp. Destiny isn't balanced not in the slightest. It's a joke.
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[quote]The funny thing is you have spent 21000 matches in destiny pvp,[b]how[/b] and [b]why[/b],destiny pvp is 🗑 because its tied to a looter shooter and inherently in balanced.[/quote] As far as why, I could probably never explain that to you. But I will say that I wouldn't have that kind of time in PvE. PvP matches last 10 minutes. I honestly don't argue for SBMM vs. CBMM anymore, or at least that's not what I'm trying to do, I'm trying to get everyone on board with where the game should be headed. The game most likely will not return to SBMM for reasons that have not at all been discussed by anyone in this thread. You noticed how many matches what you can't tell is that I have like a grand total of 184 felwinters kills and probably the the same or less on all the 120s. I will agree with you that Destiny isn't "balanced." But like I said to his majesty elsewhere in this thread, that's not the game they are making and I don't know why they make a certain game then do what they do after making it. Destiny has always, even during its flirtations with becoming "McDestiny" at time periods that will not be mentioned, had the heart and soul of a very hardcore game. Both on the PvE and PvP side as well. Sometimes that soul of the game pops up but not in ways that people are accustomed to from having played other shooters. This is simply not a game where everyone can be going in solo into a 12 player mode and have the characters working the way you would think they would work while also having matches that are always close (or really even close more than like 50ish% of the time). And making the matches "close" just produces nonsense stats that the game then proceeds to digest into more nonsense. Over time it just becomes complete nonsense and then its like "time to reset the nonsense." If you know how this game works then you just yearn for there to be less nonsense.
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I’m not insulting anyone. If you don’t like how a pattern of behavior and preference are being described, and the impact it has on other players being pointed out? I’m afraid that’s not my problem. https://www.dexerto.com/gaming/what-is-sbmm-in-gaming-and-why-is-it-so-controversial-1367022/?amp
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You've been, "pointing" stuff out on Forum for ages KG, and still nobody gives q schit what you think. Lol - attention -blam!-
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Edited by A_mo: 3/29/2021 7:53:00 PMI don't need to read anything more about SBMM at this point. And honestly neither does anyone else. Its most likely not coming back and the reasons its not are reasons that you will find out in time. Or it might, and if it does it will strangely enough be for the same reasons. My whole thing with the SBMM is that it serves no purpose for competitive game modes. Its a marketing tool plain and simple. Its also putting (extremely debatable) behavioral science theories on auto-pilot to be dictated by a computer, which is something that just shouldn't be being done at the minimal level that SBMM does it. At the end of the day it basically amounts to profiling and then forcing the person you profiled to be what you profiled them to be. [quote]The OTHER faction is what I just call "pub stomp culture"[/quote] Profiling.
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KG always goes to “gradual learning” as his theory for why he wants SBMM. I’m all for learning, and think this would be a good thing. Unfortunately, learning was not the result of Destiny’s recent SBMM experiments. Instead, it was stratification and stagnation. The casual pvp players stopped learning, and were rewarded by the game with other players like themselves at the expense of things like matchmaking time, lag, and the feeling of progression that you would expect when improving at something. If we really want a learning system, then rigid sbmm needs to be in comp, and it probably needs to be called something other than comp. learning in 3v3 is much easier than in 6v6.
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Yeah. And that's how we are here 3 and half years into the game with people who have been here the whole time still acting like they're beginners. They had started calling it survival there for a second. But I agree 6v6 has to be manipulated to the point where I will seriously stand in my spawn after I die until the score ties because I know the game is keeping the score tied and these people still aren't happy. They want to see Bungie acknowledge their opinions of people who like PvP. And tbh, Bungie needs to say whether or not SBMM has any chance of returning to 6v6. They should just say it doesn't if it doesn't because these people are speaking with such authority while they couldn't be more wrong about the way a lot of this stuff works.
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Thx for staying calm and reasoning your opinion and arguments. I am honest and admit I believe the short SBMM period last year was better for me personally. In comparison. My SBMM experience back then was predominantly control and IB like now and most games were close and games were both won and lost. I could end up last or in the middle with often efficiency around 1 and I experienced games occasionally where I ended first place. Getting sometimes up to 15-20 kills. I had the feeling I could compete somehow. Since SBMM was removed 90-95% of all games end with me being last in both teams and occasionally a game where I end second or third last. Never first and even in my "best" games significantly behind in kill numbers - single digit kill games. Games with zero kills and efficiency 0 happening. So despite me (trying to) honing my skills I got worse and worse. Considering on top I always run high stat masterworked armour versus "weaker" opponents on paper I must be failing on multiple fronts. What I also sense is the game has become despite of Stasis way faster, at least it feels like so. Players who have supers in no time and running around the map and killing everything like an unstoppable tornado. Long story short - what should a player like me do? Just not playing Crucible anymore? Best regards,
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[quote]Thx for staying calm and reasoning your opinion and arguments. I am honest and admit I believe the short SBMM period last year was better for me personally. In comparison. My SBMM experience back then was predominantly control and IB like now and most games were close and games were both won and lost. I could end up last or in the middle with often efficiency around 1 and I experienced games occasionally where I ended first place. Getting sometimes up to 15-20 kills. I had the feeling I could compete somehow. Since SBMM was removed 90-95% of all games end with me being last in both teams and occasionally a game where I end second or third last. Never first and even in my "best" games significantly behind in kill numbers - single digit kill games. Games with zero kills and efficiency 0 happening. So despite me (trying to) honing my skills I got worse and worse. Considering on top I always run high stat masterworked armour versus "weaker" opponents on paper I must be failing on multiple fronts. What I also sense is the game has become despite of Stasis way faster, at least it feels like so. Players who have supers in no time and running around the map and killing everything like an unstoppable tornado. Long story short - what should a player like me do? Just not playing Crucible anymore? Best regards,[/quote] Unfortunately the try hards want you in crucible as cannon fodder so they can farm you as its the only way they get any satisfaction out of the pathetic lives. Yes it is satire. Better games to play than destiny pvp pal.
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[quote]Since SBMM was removed 90-95% of all games end with me being last in both teams and occasionally a game where I end second or third last.[/quote] Ummm... If this is true then that is definitely not good. See sometimes as an individual we don't know what other people are getting from the game. I just assumed that, unless you were someone who really basically never played PvP, that something like this didn't happen much. But the unfortunate thing with SBMM, especially what happens with it when its applied to Destiny, is that the game ends up literally handing kills out like a kindergarten teacher during matches for a lot of people. Its just so not real and for a lot of people it doesn't help them get any better because its designed to give you the feeling that that's happening through fakeness. And with Destiny, because it's a game that at heart is so pure and true, it shows more than any other game its applied to. Another unfortunate fact about the SBMM thing is that people don't remember not even 2 weeks (myself included) ago what was happening in this game let alone the downsides of something that they liked a year ago. It showed. It showed so bad that people had to admit it. But like you said. 0 kills and 0 efficiency should not be happening often. Unless its something like trials or something. 6v6 that should not really be happening often unless there's some type of issue like bad internet or something. Destiny is a fast game. It pretty much always has been since the go fast update. The movement in this game and the way it used to work is another one of those things that never really gets talked about but its something that has been all over the place. And that's one of the worst things about SBMM actually is how slow some people will move compared others along with all the other variations that take place because of what the game has been tasked with doing. You should play crucible as much as you can if you like it. Another unfortunate thing about SBMM is that it just caused people to kind of go into the game and do the same thing while the game rotated around them. Its like the players sat in one place and all the stuff on the stage was what was actually moving or something, I don't know. But now you have to learn from your mistakes. Unfortunately, with how bad SBMM got, some people are only now starting to play Destiny.
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I am playing Crucible often. In fact I reset my valor rank already 5 times this season and started 4 weeks after season launch (basically when they announced sunsetting sunsetting, only then I could be bothered to come back). Yet I have the feeling everybody else is better (on average) and I don't believe I have become that bad compared to last year's SBMM time. Matter of fact is that in every single game you see two, three sometimes even more Unbroken/Flawless people who obviously are better. Personally I don't believe I should be matched against this player level but I constantly am. Of course if these players happen to end up in my team we win but it's not me winning. I am just the hanger-on in their team scrounging some kills. I constantly try to learn but believe me it's sometimes hard to learn when sometimes you are just watching your ghost reviving you again and again. When you respawn and in the very moment you get in again get shot/super-killed a second time it's just no fun. Anyway. Not your issue. Just saying it's not black-white. On neither side. And imho there needs to be a compromise for both PvP sweat lords and PvP casuals.
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Edited by A_mo: 3/30/2021 3:37:55 PMAs far as the seeing Unbroken/Flawless probably not even half of those people didn't get carried (or do various other things) for at least a portion of whatever it took to get those seals. If you are playing 6v6 solo what title someone has doesn't really say much about how much better they are than you. [quote]I am just the hanger-on in their team scrounging some kills.[/quote] I understand this feeling. But at the same time if they turn SBMM on, this is what happens to me and I will be playing the exact same people who I would have otherwise been able to compete with. And the whole time the game is running like broken garbage and the people in the match are just supposed to pretend that level of quality is acceptable. Or like some of the above posters want people to pretend, like there are some sort of negative social qualities or addiction issues that justify that crap sandwich of an experience they get handed. The problems start to arise when people try to define what constitutes sweat lord vs. casual. For me top tier is like 1500-2000 individual people, 5000 tops. For a lot of people they call basically the top 30% in what would be a true skill distribution the top 1%. So apparently the game, a computer, is supposed to be deciding who goes where according to things that only end up making the game run like it should never be allowed to run. If people are dying a lot, which is a problem everyone has at some point in their pvp journey, then its most likely because they have no idea of how much they are supposed to be playing defensively. And for some players, its basically the whole match. PvP has never been something where everyone just attacks their controller and runs at everything like its PvE, until they gradually earn the right to do that. People used to do that because the game was picking and choosing who got what kill while everyone was on total offense and, wouldn't you know it, over time after you've played enough games, you just end up getting the same stats you already have spat back at you. Its ring around the rosy matchmaking that was designed to be meaningless and was very good at that which it was designed to do. Now if we need enforced casualness then that's fine. But we can't pretend like SBMM did something that it was not doing. It was enforced casualness. When crossplay happens there will probably be enough players in the pool to think about such things. But as it is now we can only have so much Destiny and to remove Destiny from the Destiny that we have in order to try to fix Destiny is not a good idea at the moment, imho. And I will say that I do think its wrong for certain players to have to give up so much for people who really don't care for the mode like some of the people posting in this thread. You like it though and that's what's most important. If you like a certain amount then you will become good at it. I don't know, people are different. I know that I liked PvP so much that I was going to be decent at it eventually. Don't care how many times I scored in the single digits, the game wasn't getting rid of me. So to have all that effort taken away for reasons that don't really even exist is kind of tough. Its just different when it works the way that is actually very much competitive for a system that has people playing solo, any time they want, anywhere on the planet, on 3 different characters, with weapon and perk combinations in the trillions. You have to learn from your mistakes. If you are not succeeding then you are doing mistakes. Very, very, boringly defensive playing is what a lot of people should be doing and they aren't. I know they aren't because I used to do the same thing.
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The last comments I agree. I play a Titan as main and used to make majority of kills with melee running around and punching people. That worked with SBMM and before Titan melee was nerfed. Now you run around the next corner and are team shot or get a shotgun blast. I already realized playing defensive and rather longer distance is safer for me but still the skilled players find me and freeze or shotgun me often. It is a bit a vicious cycle of running and being killed from distance or crouching/hiding in a supposedly safe spot and being shotgun aped by the next Hunter or whosoever. Maybe I am just too old and slow, sometimes asking myself where that next murderer came from. I believe the biggest issue is that weak(er) players neither have an automated training system in game at hand nor does anybody tell them which mistakes they are doing. Try and error.
