No. That wasn’t an opinion that was an order. And I don’t take them from random people. Good day.

[quote]Why is Sunsetting put into this game? Serious question. Not trying to argue.[/quote] "Because if not the game will die." - KG ☝😂 What a joke, right?!

No. Because Massive Entertainment lost control of power creep in The Division 1, and it nearly destroyed that entire franchise. They let power creep run wild....then retuned the entire game to the pinnacle weapons and abilities in that game (essentially turned the entire game into The Reckoning on steroids)...and here's what happened. If you didn't have a perfectly optimized load out: 1. The game became unplayable. 2. You were constantly running out of ammunitiion becasue everything was an obnoxious bullet sponge. In many cases you had to empty multiple magazines into trash mobs to get them to die. 3. You were constantly getting one- and two-shot by anything more than the lowest tier trash mob. 4. The entire game turned into that game's version of hunkering down in a Well of Radiance (Healing Station) and other defensive buffs. The game became ONE-dimensional and everyone ran the same loadouts because the entire game was tuned to them. 5. The loot was useless and progression broke down. Because if you didn't have a perfectly optimized load out....acitivies were dropping lower level items than you had to have equipped to clear them. The situation got so bad that one of their major streamers ended up showing that the only viable way to progress in the end game was to convince higher level players to DRAG you through content that would drop gear that would progress you. So bad that the devs themselves had to come out and admit that the game was unplayable...and then put the entire FRACHISE (they delayed the release of a paid DLC) for three months while they overhauled the game. So bad that on PC the game had dropped to less than 2% of the original playerbase of a game that was only 6 months old...and there was NO bump in player numbers with their first paid DLC. What did they do: 1. THEY NERFED THE ENTIRE ARMORY INTO THE GROUND. 2. They then retuned the entire game around that more reasonable level of player power. [b]So, I guarentee you that Massive Entertainment doesn't think that runaway powercreep is a joke.[/b] In fact....like Bungie now....their biggest issue with The Division 2 is that they were so badly burned by power creep in the frist game that they insist on doling power out with an eyedropper in the current game...and that lack of power is slowly strangling player desire to play at the other extreme. "They say that the The Division is one-part RPG and one-part tactical shooter. The problem is that we are playing an RPG, while the NPCs are playing a tactical shooter." ----anonymous Division player complaining about the state of the game in patch 1.3

Boy, you wrote a book again, huh? What is with you and your obsession with other games? Dude, we are playing Destiny. We don't care what the Division is or what Massive Entertainment did to it. Do you see people talking about that game? People are talking about Destiny. Wake up bruh! You want to talk, let's talk Destiny. We don't care about other games. Nobody cares about other games Kelly.

Because other games CREATE the genre-expectation that Destiny gets judged by. Why do you think people are raging like they been possessed by demons over sunsetting?? It’s because many Destiny players are shooter gamers. They have no experience with the fact that every loot game and MMO sunsets gear. What they DO know is that every [b]shooter[/b] game lets them form long term attachments to gear, and lets them use it for the life of the game. The problem is that the are coming from an emotional place and haven’t thought it through that a CoD game that is goin mg to be replaced in a year can treat guns in the ways that loot game that needs you to keep chasing loot for years and years on the same characters CANT. My understanding of other games in these genres is why I knew that Bungie was going to be forced to walk back unlimited infusion at some point, and that fixed weapon rolls in vanilla D2 would be an threat to the life of the game if Bungie didn’t handle them right. Which of course they didn’t...and of course they were.... Because Bungie didn’t make the effort to learn the lessons that the successes and failures of other games had to teach. Now they are finally swallowing their pride and learning those lessons and those rules. Sunsetting was one of them. Sunsetting isn’t a problem. It’s the only solution to a problem Bungie let FESTER in this game for the last five years. The pain people are felling is Bungie finally draining pus and treating the infected wound. Yeah—-and after pretending nothing was wrong for five years? If hurts like a mother....

I know where you are coming from. But you are contradicting yourself. You said there are over a million gamers now in the playerbase playing the game regularly now. If we ask them what they think, we are gonna get a million different answers. I know this and you said this as well. I know this before you even said it. And I know you said it somewhere here. So, knowing that, everyone will have a different voice and a different experience. If you can show me a poll, or set of questionnaires, or some type of survey where all these people in the playerbase have their say about this, then I'll take what they believe is their experience is in gaming. All I know Kelly is most gamers just play. It doesn't matter what they play, they just play a game. It's a videogame Kelly. Most people I know play a videogame. Whatever genre they are playing, it's still just a videogame. At the end of the day, they turn off the power and their screen, grab a beer and reflect on their experience if the game they played was worth it or not, did they enjoy it or not, was it fun for them or not. Everything else is forgotten. What matters at the end are a few questions that matters to them. It's a videogame Kelly, it's not rocket science where people need to prepare to go to Mars or another planet. At the end of the day, when they turn off that power on their rig and their screen, did their experience left them happy and contented? That's about it Kelly. Nothing else matter. It's a videogame, no matter what genre it is. When they're done, everyone have their own opinion of whether it was good for them or not. People play different games all the time. They'll decide on their own if it was good for them or not. That's also the truth that I know Kelly. Like it or not, it's the truth.

No. I’m not. I have been making this same argument for five years. And Bungie is finally being forced to do exactly what I said they’d have to. They would be forced to eventually take gear away from us to save the game. That letting us keep stuff forever was an impossible promise. One that I NEVER took seriously because I knew this day was inevitable. Because the player psychology that thes games rely upon [i]doesn’t change.[/i]. And if you don’t respect you will destroy your own game. Blizzard presented an hour long GDC lecture on this point and the painful price they paid with vanilla Diablo 3 when they lost sight of it.

That's not what we are talking about Kelly. You are deviating again. Stop doing that. People would think you are foaming in the mouth trying to derail the topic again. We were taking about gamer's experiences with shooters and with other games. Now you jumped to another subject totally unrelated to our train of thoughts. Stop doing that. And yes, you contradicted yourself. You said in your previous post above that you know what gamer's experiences are and that what they DO know is that every [b]shooter[/b] game lets them form long term attachments to gear, and lets them use it for the life of the game. These are your own words. I can post it back to you if you want. That's where you contradicted yourself. How can you possibly answer for somebody what they know or experience in a game when I saw you in another thread also say we can't possibly know what everyone wants. We can ask a hundred, a thousand, a million gamers from the playerbase and we would get a million different answers. That's what I mean you are contradicting ypurself. On one thread, you claim to know what gamer experiences, and on another thread, you claim we can't and well get a million different answers. You contradict yourself Kelly, everywhere you go. And stop derailing and deviating the topic in the middle of a discussion. You look like you are foaming in the mouth when you do that.

It’s what I’m talking about. Because without sunsetting this game would have self-destructed. The warning signs in player behavior were plain to see a year ago.

[quote]It’s what I’m talking about. Because without sunsetting this game would have self-destructed. The warning signs in player behavior were plain to see a year ago.[/quote] Oh Kelly, a broken record again. We are still here Kelly. Gamers did not destroy the game yet. At least not yet.

Because Bungie always intervenes before it gets to that point. Just as they are doing now. Just because the driver stops the car doesn’t mean that the road it was on didn’t lead over a cliff. The problem is that Destiny players are always looking backwards rather than forwards. Raging about what’s been taken away rather than paying attention to where things are/were headed. Because they are too busy assigning blame for every frustration instead of trying to understand what’s going on.

Yeah because actual mmos can keep up with the weapons being set

Yea, and it's doing so well😑

Actually...for the target audience that Bungie is making the game for? It is. Player numbers have been remarkably stable. What many of you haven't figured out yet....or just dont' want to accept....is that Bungie doesn't WANT to keep this current player base. They want to prune it....and replace it with one that is more aligned with wanting the play the game as an action-RPG/action-MMO and not a over-engineered shooter.

Thats what I mean, its not good for those people, they know what bungie's trying to do... and they dont like it, so they express their concern, as much of the destiny community is doing right now. destiny streamers are literally quitting, multiple youtubers are making videos against sunsetting, so your steady stream of players isn't really a valid argument here because im not talking about that.

[quote]Thats what I mean, its not good for those people, they know what bungie's trying to do... and they dont like it, so they express their concern,[/quote] Yes. [quote] as much of the destiny community is doing right now.[/quote] No. Don't confuse a loud and vocal minority for being the lion's share of the player base. That is an illusion that social media is VERY good at creating. FOUR million players play this game....and this place is dominated by about 400 (largely disgruntled) posters who show up here day...and a few dozen streamers that have platforms that greatly amplify their voices and status that give them the power to influence what others think. But the fact is that those 4 million players are LARGELY **unfazed** by what's going on here. What is going on here is nothing more than a power struggle for control of the game...and you and a small but high profile MINORITY of the player base is losing that struggle. So they are trying to use that high profile to create the illusion that they are more numerous than they actually are...and more powerful than they actually are. I was here during vanilla Destiny 2. I KNOW what Bungie looks like and sounds like when they are panicking...and their panicking because player numbers are imploding. Bungie isn't panicking. In fact they look and sound confident in a way that I've seldom seen or heard from them. The fact that they are talking about HIRING people given the chaos that the economy is in right now speaks VOLUMES about how they feel they are doing as a business and what their future prospects look like to management.

And how would you know that those 4 million people aren't disappointed with the state of the game? There's plenty of people that can be disappointed, but not quit. You talk as if those 4 million people are all for sunsetting. Theres bin multiple surveys, votes, and multiple peoples vocalization, and most, next to all have bin leaning towards the distaste in sunsetting. And you say people against sunsetting are in the minority? I would look at all the data than just the daily player count, good Sir😠

They show up to play. Like in politics, the only poll that matters is on Election Day, the only metrics that matter here are who plays, and what they spend on the game. This is a [b]business.[/b] The average player has a healthy relationship with the game and acts like a consumer instead of a jilted lover. So when they are unhappy with the game....[i]they stop playing it, and they go do something else with their time.[/i] They don’t come to social media and rage. Right now the average player is showing that they are happy with pve...which is why you aren’t seeing any signs of Bungie backing down on sunsetting. But it’s also showing that there is a problem in pvp. Engagement is at franchise lows at around 300k per day, and Trials is dying it’s usual, horrible death. Which is why Bungie is filing lawsuits to try to deal with the companies making hacks, and trying to massage stasis into something that pvp players will accept. They aren’t dealing with the biggest problem, which is CBMM. THIS is why I tell people to go play something else if they’re unhappy. BUNGIE RESPONDS TO CHANGES IN ENGAGEMENT. When people stop playing parts of the game, Bungie sees that for what it is. People VOTING WITH THEIR FEET. But when you show up here and whine and complain about the same things day in and day out BUT CONTINUE TO PLAY....or worse leave the game and just try to set fire to the place on your way out? [b]All you’re doing is teaching Bungie to ignore you. Because you are showing them that there are no consequences that they care about if they do. [/b]

All other loot games and mmos use more conventional levelling systems and most use world tiers for difficulty spectrum, which combine to make sunsetting appropriate solutions in those games. Destiny is unique and necessitates a unique solution to its gear problems. A form of sunsetting could still work, but not as they have ever implemented in D1 or D2. They butchered the implementation by trying to filt a square peg into a round hole. They, and you, need to step back and recognize that sunsetting needs significantly more thought and planning to pull off effectively within Destiny’s structure. What other games do simply won’t cut it.

[quote]All other loot games and mmos use more conventional levelling systems[/quote] Except they fundamentally don't. Let's take Borderlands 2 for example (since people seem to lose their minds when comparing to WoW), as you are progressing through the game and leveling up your character, items drop on your level for the mostpart. You could get the best weapon in the game at Level 30, but that weapon will not be very useful in endgame content at Level 50. Then when a DLC launches that increases the Level cap, any items you previously obtained at Level 50 and below cannot be upgraded. They don't specifically call it sunsetting, but it is the same concept. In my opinion, the main reason people do not like the idea of sunsetting in Destiny is because the infusion system has been extremely forgiving when compared to other loot games and mmos, essentially, we have been spoiled. While I agree certain aspects of the implementation of sunsetting have not been done well, people were whining about sunsetting before it was even implemented.

The difference your missing is that in a Borderlands levelling system your gear is not what determines your level. That is where destiny is unique. The character doesn’t level, the gear does. Now I actually agree that a form of gear retirement during the level process is appropriate. The conflict arises at the end game. Because builds and levelling are both gear dependent and not character dependent (skill tree focused) and because Bungie insists on raising the level cap endlessly, the player ends up on and endless treadmill that devalues loot and player investment. I think sunsetting would be far less hated if the level cap were raised once per year and then remained static until the next DLC. Gear could then remain static for that year while giving players a reason to invest in builds and chase loot without the impending expiry date every season. Sunsetting is a problem because of the poorly designed progression system. Infusion was a bandaid for that flaw that has backfired on Bungie. This is why sunsetting needs far more thought and planning than what they have done so far, which looks like no planning. They picked a destination, but didn’t plan a route to get there so players are upset every time they make a predictable wrong turn.