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1/21/2021 2:56:07 PM
203
Sunsetting is a foundational aspect of loot games and MMOs.
English
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Why is Sunsetting put into this game? Serious question. Not trying to argue.
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So Bungie could manage the loot system in a sustainable way. Loot gamers are motivated to chase power. But you can’t give the player power forever without breaking the game. If you try, you either have to: 1. Keep making loot more and more powerful so that people will chase it. This eventually makes people so powerful that nothing is a challenge or a threat anymore. 2. You refuse to give the player any power beyond a certain point....and then people get bored and frustrated because nothing is better than what they already have. 3. The devs pushback and tune the game to the high level of player power. Which makes the game unplayable if you don’t have the overpowered gear...and pressures you to use it all the time if you do. 4. The devs push back by nerfing things at the top. You keep the gear, but they clawback it’s power. So the game lurches randomly from one power extreme to another. Eventually you break the game it’s way. What essentially every other developer does is sunset gear. That is you rotate the weapon or it’s power out of the game on a predictable schedule. This allows the devs to take power away from you in one part of the game, while they give it back to you somewhere else. This allows the devs to always give you power to chase, but without creating power problems by giving you too much power, or creating loot incentive problems by not giving power to chase.
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Kelly, Destiny players do not really care about arbitrary power. I can't tell you the number of times myself and others have said we would be fine getting rid of whatever light/power level system Bungie has used. What we actually care about is whether the mechanics of activities are fun to interact with. When you talk/listen to the best raiders in the community, they always give the highest praise to mechanic heavy raids, because that is where the true challenge of the game comes from. People don't care about arbitrarily difficult enemies like Master/GM Champions who, if you don't dps fast enough, just regen all their health. . .because eventually this leads to ammo attrition and it becomes virtually impossible to kill them with weapons, which means waiting however many minutes for your ability cooldowns. Champions are not fun, because they force you to stop and play rock, paper, scissors during every activity they appear in, not to mention how badly this restricts which weapons you can actually take into said activities. Will people eventually learn how to cheese mechanics and negate this mechanical challenge. Yes, we've known this since Atheon. That is why content now will eventually enter the DCV and get replaced with some new mechanics that players need to learn. If they want to tune the cheese out before bringing it back later, they can do that. The important thing is players want to feel powerful when battling PvE enemies, that's what it means to have a power fantasy. Outside of contest modes, the challenge will always need to come from the mechanics of an encounter.
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Cant do that. 1. If you remove power levels, you remove progression....and you basically turn the game into an arcade game or a campaign shooter. Then we're basically back to the formula of vanilla Destiny 2 that nearly destroyed the franchise. 2. The Champions mechanic isn't a problem. Every mechanic system forces you to stop what you're doing and engage with it. The problem is how Bungie has implemented it. Instead of implementing the system across the entire weapon system, Bungie is using it as an underhanded way to FORCE people to use certain weapons. To control player power, and to curate player loadouts in end-game activities. Although most people probably havent considered it in those terms, they are clearly FEELING the lack of freedom that is the result of what Bungie is doing with that mechanic...and its making them angry. Its yet another round of "Your going to play our game our way" with Bungie.
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[quote]Cant do that. 1. If you remove power levels, you remove progression....and you basically turn the game into an arcade game or a campaign shooter.[/quote] [i]Oh no...however can a campaign shooter be successful? If only there was an example of how this could work...if only there was such a successful franchise, supported by a large publisher, maybe even Activision... /s[/i] In case you can't tell, I'm talking about CoD, which is more similar to Destiny than most other games out there; a fast paced arena shooter with both popular PvP and PvE modes. You unlock better perks and attachments on guns just as Destiny involves acquiring better rolls. The only real difference is CoD is a DLC-focused game with annual/bi-annual releases, whereas Bungie at least pushed back a little bit against Activision's model, since they want to be more of a live-service MMO, not wanting to reset player progression (at least that was the appearance it had pre-sunsetting). [quote] Instead of implementing the system across the entire weapon system, Bungie is using it as an underhanded way to FORCE people to use certain weapons. To control player power, and to curate player loadouts in end-game activities. Its yet another round of "Your going to play our game our way" with Bungie.[/quote] See even though we seem to at least half agree on this point, you act as if this was a simple bug/oversight and wasn't just totally the intention of Bungie. They purposefully tied mechanics to mobs instead of some random environmental factor like normal, because this allows them to add that arbitrary power slider to the mechanic; it's their "foolproof" plan to counter cheesing. And as a bonus, they get to shrink the sandbox because the smaller the pool of viable counter-weapons is, the less balancing work Bungie has to put in to those activities! Again, Bungie doesn't see this as a problem, it's a feature.
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1. Bungie tried to turn this game into a campaign shooter. It was called "vanilla Destiny 2". This community HATED it. It was such a disaster that Bungie rolled back ALL of the changes...and all of the people who were the architects of those changes no longer work at Bungie. Campaign shooters can be successful, but THIS game has a very proven track record that IT cannot be successful as one, and that this player base doesn't want to play Destiny as that kind of game. Bungie isn't going to stick their hand in that bear trap a second time. 2. I'm not saying it was an oversight. I said "underhanded", I meant it was intentional...and Bungie is not being candid with us that they are using it in this fashion. As a way of controlling the sandbox and controlling player loadouts in end-game content. Players are getting frustrated with this...and are pushing back against it. Because that too is NOT compatible with good loot game design. Just like telling people that they can keep loot forever and it will never become obselete was not compatible with it.
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Edited by inShane2k11: 1/23/2021 6:56:39 AMIt's not that people disliked the system in D2 Y1, the main feedback was TTK being way too slow [i](which it was)[/i]. The problem is, not only did they buff the majority of primaries to a sub-1s TTK [i](which would have been a good intermediate fix)[/i], but they also decided to bring back OHK special weapons and abilities [i](dropping TTK even further, and creating a time-to-death issue)[/i]. In PvE this change was completely fine, but in PvP, the reintroduction of specials created a volatile sandbox which directly led to the creation of pinnacles like Recluse; only way to make an SMG compete with an OHK shotgun/fusion was to give it an insanely low TTK [i](0.4-0.5s)[/i]. The only way to make special weapons better in such a sandbox is to increase OHK range [i](Mindbender/Felwinter's. . .going all the way back to D1 Matador. . .and yes, I said this was a problem even back then)[/i], increase aim assist/AoE [i](Jotunn/Mountaintop)[/i], or to break the ammo economy [i](Revoker. . .and obviously D1 varients Invective, No Land Beyond, etc.)[/i]. This then led to abilities getting out of control [i](Pocket Nova, Shoulder Charge, Super Resistance on Knives, Warp, Blades, Strikers, etc., and overshields galore: OEM)[/i]. This problem sandbox is what Stasis debuted in. I think freezing was a mistake, but it wouldn't feel nearly as bad if you didn't get one shot by just about everything once frozen, even when in a super. Until their balance team pulls back to the old, old, shotgun-melee meta [i](two-burst)[/i], OHKs will continue to destablize the PvP sandbox. Players always need to feel like they can fight back, less so against supers and heavy pickups, but especially so against standard weapons and abilities. ~~~ Edit: Also no random rolls Y1 to give any sort of reason to grind. Point is, they vastly over-corrected for mistakes made going from D1->D2.
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You’re overthinking the example.
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And you and Bungie are under-thinking it, that's the problem.
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No. The problem is that you have too many people who ate prepared to destroy this game in the long term to get what they want in the short term. This is the same temper tantrum this community threw back in 2014 during [i]The Dark Below.[/i]
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Did you not look at the cause and effect that I explicitly laid out? I aaammm thinking long term. If Bungie had the same understanding of how OHK weapons and abilities impact not just this game, but any game, then they could've avoided this whole pinnacle/power creep mess in the first place. Like I said, this is a years old problem that goes back to the earliest days of D1 Crucible. It has had a domino effect throughout every system of the game since, which is exactly why I have seen you complain that PvP shouldn't even be a focus of Destiny, because no matter how hard they try to separate the sandboxes, they are forever intertwined by the player experience.
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I’m not chasing people down rabbit holes of wishful thinking. Bungie did that five years ago, and the result was a broken game that lead us right back here. Having the same fight that Bungie refused to do the right—-the only—thing to resolve back then. There is ONLY ONE viable solution here...and implementing after five years is going to hurt and going to suck. ...and expending energy continuing to fight that reality is pointless. Facts. Are. Stubborn. Things.
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Original Destiny was broken for a lot of reasons. . .that was not one of them. I can tell you for a fact it is impossible to balance a sandbox around 0 TTK weapons [i](click to delete)[/i]. OHK weapons are what turn games into sweaty twitch shooters. A lot of Destiny players, even many streamers, want to be able to relax and use whatever weapons they choose, but it is by definition impossible to counter OHKs. The only response is being as fast or faster with an equal OHK force. That's why more strategy based games like Battlefield have made it so only precision slugs and sniper precision shots at optimal range will give the OHK. Even the tanks in their newer releases had splash damage nerfed so that infantry could better counter vehicles. The reason we have always had a sniper/shotgun meta is because it takes far less skill/luck to land a single shot and get a kill. That's the role supers and heavy weapons are suppose to play. Any other OHK should be reliant on activating perks and rewarding player skill in precision, not just reaction time. If you can't see it yet, just look at how one of the oldest twitch-shooter franchises in CoD is suddenly trying to be more like Battlefield and various other new competitors in the Battle Royal Genre.
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[quote]1. Bungie tried to turn this game into a campaign shooter. It was called "vanilla Destiny 2". This community HATED it. It was such a disaster that Bungie rolled back ALL of the changes...and all of the people who were the architects of those changes no longer work at Bungie.[/quote] so what your saying is, if we kick up enough of a fuss we can get sunsetting removed and the people responsible fired? just like d2y1 all over again?
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Edited by kellygreen45: 1/23/2021 3:51:19 AMIf you had enough of the community and enough economic firepower behind you? Sure. The problem is you don’t, and Bungie knows it.
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guess we better get to it then!
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You don’t and won’t. You’re being drowned out by those million players a day who keep showing up to play.
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Edited by Billahzz: 1/26/2021 8:23:12 AMso... what youre telling me is i need to go make those million people stop playing in order to stop sunsetting? guess i better go ruin some peoples days then! thanks for the advice KG!!
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[quote]Kelly, Destiny players do not really care about arbitrary power. I can't tell you the number of times myself and others have said we would be fine getting rid of whatever light/power level system Bungie has used. What we actually care about is whether the mechanics of activities are fun to interact with. When you talk/listen to the best raiders in the community, they always give the highest praise to mechanic heavy raids, because that is where the true challenge of the game comes from. People don't care about arbitrarily difficult enemies like Master/GM Champions who, if you don't dps fast enough, just regen all their health. . .because eventually this leads to ammo attrition and it becomes virtually impossible to kill them with weapons, which means waiting however many minutes for your ability cooldowns. Champions are not fun, because they force you to stop and play rock, paper, scissors during every activity they appear in, not to mention how badly this restricts which weapons you can actually take into said activities. Will people eventually learn how to cheese mechanics and negate this mechanical challenge. Yes, we've known this since Atheon. That is why content now will eventually enter the DCV and get replaced with some new mechanics that players need to learn. If they want to tune the cheese out before bringing it back later, they can do that. The important thing is players want to feel powerful when battling PvE enemies, that's what it means to have a power fantasy. Outside of contest modes, the challenge will always need to come from the mechanics of an encounter.[/quote] This x over 9000. 🤘😑
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And the power creep was problem for Destiny before right? Ever since we got weapons with Outlaw + damage perk the power level for Legendary weapons was stable. The only chalengers were Recluse, Mountaintop, Lunas Howl/Not Forgoten and Feeding Frenzy. All of those were already dealt with via nerfing. Also in order to have sunseting you need to replace the loot for every avenue you want to keep in game. In case of Destiny it would be vendor refresh for Gambit, Strikes/NF and PvP, Destinationation you are still selling for money (Tangled Shore, Dreaming City, Moon and Europa) and Raids. To be fair Zavala, Drifter and Shax get new armour so mission accomplished...... P.S. Oh and perhaps if you want to fix the loot why not start from the basics like loot acquisition?
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The fact that a reload perk is considered op in this game shows that all the other gimmick perks are trash.
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Can't do that. Because that puts us right back where we started, and on a path to destroy the game....again. Bungie needs to accept that if they are going to go with this system, then their ability to sell old expansions is goign to be severely limited.
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Sounds like something they should accept already. Not to mention if you want to have sunseting you need vendor refresh and steady stream of loot. Without it you have limited loot table for to many sources.
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[quote]Sounds like something they should accept already.[/quote] they are not going to accept the destruction of a franchise that is probably worth billions. That is NOT going to happen....and the owners would have legitimate grounds to SUE Bungie executives if they did that. They have an obligation to run the company for a profit, and in the long-term interests of the owners. (This is what CD Projekt Red is getting sued over by their shareholders given the disastrous launch of Cyberpunk). [quote]Not to mention if you want to have sunseting you need vendor refresh and steady stream of loot. Without it you have limited loot table for to many sources.[/quote] Yep. Which is why Bungie is finally being forced to FIX a problem that they've ignored for years. This game has ALWAYS lacked the ability to generate enough loot. The lack of sunsetting just allowed Bungie to sweep the problem under the rug and pretend that everything was just fine...when it wasn't.
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So they should scammed the people for they money? I do not think that is good solutionl. As for state of Destiny I would argue that much bigger problems are loot acqusition, game progresion (rookie to Raider) and older destinations/activities have no place. So why is good to add another weak point by showing another weak point and manpower sink? Especialy now when Destiny is sharing resources with Matter.
