[quote]Sunsetting is a foundational aspect of loot games and MMOs.[/quote] Destiny is not an MMO, nor does it have the requisite quantity of gear to justify weapon and armor retirement. Sunsetting exacerbates preexisting issues with the game while doing little to alleviate the problems it was supposedly designed to solve.

New record Kel, one sentence received 159 replies. Oh boy. Lol

Just hit 200...

[i]An inconvenient truth......[/i]

No kiddin. I had a quick question for ya if ya don’t mind, Cross Play, that coming next season?

Not sure. Bungie has committed to it coming this year. I haven’t heard anything about it coming next season. But I’m not as tuned in as I usually am. Real life is getting in the way. You know how it is....

It's FPS and now it's Blockbuster Pay for 1 year rental weapons

See the thing is though, [i]I[/i] have decided Destiny isn't an MMO, so therefor any of the decisions the team at Bungie make for [i]their[/i] intent on what the game might be, is now turbo-garbo. Checkmate Bungalo, your house of cards has fallen. E: Apparently the /s was needed.

Fine. You get to decide whatever you like for YOUR GAMING HABITS. But your opinions don’t define reality for everyone else. If you don’t like it, don’t play it. That’s what dissatisfied consumers normally do. They stop using a product they are unhappy with. They stop supporting a business whose products dont meet their needs. They instead give their support to those businesses that do meet their needs.

[quote]But your opinions don’t define reality for everyone else.[/quote] Should take your own advice sometime.

I do. Everyday. Which is why I’m not angry and burned out. I take responsibility for my own experience, instead of finding new ways to blame Bungie for it. Bungie doesn’t have more control over my life than I do. Look at my activity history. Try to find the last time I played a Crucible match...

Yet you keep coming on here preaching that your opinion is fact. Interesting how everyone else is wrong, but you aren’t.... You actually are reminding me almost 100% of an acquaintance of mine. Argues in a similar fashion, yells that he’s right, and when proven wrong will never admit to it. It’s scary how much you are reminding me of him right now. Heck even some of how I have responded to you in the last 5 years is exactly how I respond to him. At least with him, I know why he is the way he is. Makes me almost wonder....🤔🤔🤔 And no, you are not him, if that’s the question you were going to bring up.

“Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But you are not entitled to your own set of facts” —-Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan. I show here because I cars about WHAT is right rather than WHO is right. Because this game cannot evolve without a clear sense of WHAT is true. But that puts me in perpetual conflict with this virtual daycare center because it only care about self-interest and the appearance of being right. So anything that doesn’t fit the preferred narrathets dismissed as opinion or disinformation. Because this place runs on raw emotion rather than reason or simply common sense. Something isn’t an opinion simply because you don’t like it. There many different opinions. There are many different values and preferences. There is only ONE set of facts...and I advocate for them. And when you are reduced to attacking someone’s personality you are not operating from that set of facts.

No, you don’t really advocate for facts. Rather you advocate for your personal perception of things, and every other perception is automatically wrong. Then you make long winded statements made to deflect from the argument, even putting quotes or odd comparisons as a means of demeaning the person you are arguing with. Then when you are proven wrong, you don’t admit to it, you just keep pounding in your point, even so much as to claim predictions of things. Like I said, I know the type. I’m not assassinating your character. This is just who you are, and I’m not the only one who has said this. I overlook a lot of things because occasionally we could have a back and forth discussion. But that has changed. You have moved into a different realm of acting smart, and using that to derail discussions in a backhanded way instead of having a legitimate discussion. You even resort to petty bs arguments re entitlement and generational arguments when ever you want to de-legitimized someone’s point (ironically you’ve tried this on me, which backfired as we are from the same generation). You stopped with the discussions, so I stopped treating your arguments as discussions. The one trait that stands out to me is your stubbornness. Nobody will change your mind, no matter what. It’s that attitude from your posts that gives the “why bother arguing with you” vibes, hence the post of you are never wrong. I made a retort post the other day for you to back up your numbers argument with extra data points showing trends, patterns, and other long term data points to support your claim of the playerbase being stronger than ever. Now granted, you don’t have to do so, but instead of that you go and backhand attack me with the “I’m right and everyone else is wrong” attack on me, that that is my underlining tone. You openly attacked me, mocking me personally instead of engaging with my argument. So don’t you even ever think that you aren’t attacking others. Engage with the argument. No one wants to read ten paragraphs of fluff pieces full of quotations from famous people or comparisons like your last one of doggies and table legs. Stop thinking your position is the be all, end all. Clearly people don’t like Sunsetting for various reasons. Instead of belittling every single one of them, try and actually understand why they don’t and discuss things there, instead of toting the Bungie is always right line. It’s tiresome to deal with. I know you are older and set in your ways, but arguing with you gives me a migraine. And I only get those from dealing with stupidity. Because as a smart individual myself, I literally have a very low tolerance for stupidity. I’ll leave this discussion here.

I advocate for facts. My livelihood depends on my understanding the difference. So you’re trying to gaslight the wrong guy. Which is why you are reduced to attacking my personality. Argumentum ad Hominem: Attack the Messenger when you have no other means of attacking the message. If I were actually only advocating for my opinion. You’d have a fairly easy time presenting data to discredit what I’m saying. On the other hand because I stick with the facts, what I say DOESNT CHANGE. Because the facts of this situation HAVENT CHANGED. 1. Infusion was a bad game design decision that no one has been able to make work in a loot game...and it was a predictable failure. 2. Promising players that they could keep loot forever and keep it eternally relevant was an impossible promise. One that they predictably could make good on. 3. This game has always been poorly designed as a loot game, and Bungie is finally being forced to fix it since they aren’t going to abandon it for a sequel. 4. The problems they are running into ARE THE PRODUCT OF PREVIOUS BAD DECISIONS AND NEGLECTED PROBLEMS. They were not caused by Sunsetting or a “poor implementation of sunsetting. ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS WERE PRESENT LAST YEAR IF YOU KNEW WHAT TO LOOK FOR...and the Pve player base was just as unhappy. Sunsetting is not the problem it is a necessary PART of the solution to those problems. But this community always IGNORES anything that doesn’t tell them what they wish to hear and doesn’t confirm what they already believe.

Never mind. As always, trying to talk with you gets nowhere. 4 year of this is 4 years too many. While I’ll always hear both sides of the discussion for points, you will not. Was not doing character assassination. But as always you always take it that way. Maybe it’s how I present it. I know i come across as passive-aggressive when I type....you can ask Logan, should you communicate with him still at all. Either way, I’m honestly tired of the ridiculousness, so unless something changes, or I feel the need to communicate again this probably will be our last interaction. Shame it got to this point, but I guess it is to be expected when this has escalated to this point. I’m tired of the dismissive attitude, and frankly I have a lot of negativity in my life. I don’t need to continue to add to it. Maybe one day we will go back to actually discussing a topic instead of attacking each other. We will see. Good luck out there Kelly. Hopefully life treats you well, because we all deserve to be treated with respect and dignity, just as we need to learn to treat others with dignity and respect. World would be a much nicer place if we did. Anyway good luck and Godspeed. 👍 -LK

I’m not sure if it was always this way, but it is my final determination that Kelly is a bully and a troll, and worse he does not even realize it. I think you are taking the right step in not communicating with him at all going forward. In regards to his negativity, You have to understand that he is not actually communicating with you. What he is actually doing, is having a discussion between himself: The ultimate arbiter of truth and rational, Versus It’s binary opposite, A position that he has placed you in. Basically, in his worldview everything can be neatly fit into pseudo- political boxes where he has reduced every issue to black-and-white, no matter his use of colorful language. This makes the argument manageable, and justifies more easily the dismissal of his opponents views and voice. Example: In Kelly’s mind, When a person advocates for changes in PVP, they are never simply providing feedback, they are literally Threatening the health of the game. Worse yet, he ascribes ill intent and motive to them such as “wanting to prey on lesser skilled players” out of selfishness. In this way they are not only wrong or miss guided in their assumptions, they are bad people. The same thing goes for every issue that he tackles.

[quote]I’m not sure if it was always this way, but it is my final determination that Kelly is a bully and a troll, and worse he does not even realize it. I think you are taking the right step in not communicating with him at all going forward. [/quote] I don’t know either. I know he became this way during the D2 reveal/launch days with Sols, when both starred to actively attack the community as a whole. But honestly I don’t remember whether or not Kelly was like this prior to then. I completely agree with your assessment though, and thank you regarding my decision. [quote]In regards to his negativity, You have to understand that he is not actually communicating with you. What he is actually doing, is having a discussion between himself: The ultimate arbiter of truth and rational, Versus It’s binary opposite, A position that he has placed you in. Basically, in his worldview everything can be neatly fit into pseudo- political boxes where he has reduced every issue to black-and-white, no matter his use of colorful language. This makes the argument manageable, and justifies more easily the dismissal of his opponents views and voice.[/quote] That’s how I’ve felt about the situation. I just couldn’t come up with the right words for it. I keep thinking to myself, and this may seem silly, but that he was like a Sith Lord, constantly talking about the absolutes of things. Probably not the best of examples, but that was the best comparison I could come up with. Like the other day, he quoted a player count number from a website. I asked him to provide more evidence to support his POV with trends, patterns, and other data points, in order for me to see what that more evidence backed up his numbers, to take them seriously, that the community was strong. He basically just went and insulted me in a backhanded manner. It feels like he only deals in the absolutes and screw everyone in the middle....but he did that during the D2 Beta as well. People who were skeptical of the direction D2 was heading, he labeled them as “haters” and lumped them with the people who hated Bungie, and dismissed everything that was constructive criticism as such then, just like Sols did. So I’m partially to blame for thinking that maybe I could get both of them to back off and see that there weren’t just two sides. Resulting in me taking things way more personally than I should have..... [quote]Example: In Kelly’s mind, When a person advocates for changes in PVP, they are never simple providing feedback, they are literally Threatening the health of the game. Worse yet, he ascribes ill intent and motive to them such as “wanting to prey on lesser skilled players” out of selfishness. In this way they are not only wrong or miss guided in their assumptions, they are bad people. The same thing goes for every issue that he tackles.[/quote] Exactly how I’ve looked at it. That example describes things perfectly.

In regards to Sols and Kelly, I’ve often theorized that they were both the same person. However, their motivation seems different, even though their tactics/world view are similar. I mentioned tactics and worldview as interchangeable, when evaluating both of them, because I think that their view of the situation(and expressing it passionately), produces a kind of benefit that informs their tactics on discussing things with other people. Both of them always reduced feedback down into ingroup, outgroup divisiveness, essentially making things tribal, and political. Sols saw great benefit from this, via social currency that granted him something approximating fans, to the point he was given access to direct feedback with Bungie. The way he was acting was working, so much so that he was even given a pass to bully and mistreat others openly, with a little kickback, up until the point that feedback has become overwhelmingly negative(and him being on the other side of that negative feedback). It was at this point that the community began to see who he really was... Sols like Kelly are and always have been more into “playing the forums” than playing the game. And to his credit, Sols did it well, his ego and unwillingness to listen bit him in the ass in the end. He simply could not distinguish between those two were giving him honest, fair criticism, from those who had ill intent. To sum it up, I believe that Sols sowed division for power, influence, and popularity, I don’t think he gave one shit about the game or this community. Kelly on the other hand, his motivation for starting shit is much more simple. He’s a man with a lot of time, mixed with an over inflated ego, along with serious personal problems that cause him to bleed out his obvious insecurities. He spends copious amounts of time writing essays to prepubescent teens on how they need to view the game in a way so that it doesn’t destroy itself. At risk of being a complete asshole myself, I believe that it’s pathetic and for all his talk about how toxic the community is, he is one of its largest contributors.

[quote]In regards to Sols and Kelly, I’ve often theorized that they were both the same person. However, their motivation seems different, even though their tactics/world view are similar. I mentioned tactics and worldview as interchangeable, when evaluating both of them, because I think that their view of the situation(and expressing it passionately), produces a kind of benefit that informs their tactics on discussing things with other people. Both of them always reduced feedback down into ingroup, outgroup divisiveness, essentially making things tribal, and political. Sols saw great benefit from this, via social currency that granted him something approximating fans, to the point he was given access to direct feedback with Bungie. The way he was acting was working, so much so that he was even given a pass to bully and mistreat others openly, with a little kickback, up until the point that feedback has become overwhelmingly negative(and him being on the other side of that negative feedback). It was at this point that the community began to see who he really was... Sols like Kelly are and always have been more into “playing the forums” than playing the game. And to his credit, Sols did it well, his ego and unwillingness to listen bit him in the ass in the end. He simply could not distinguish between those two were giving him honest, fair criticism, from those who had ill intent. [/quote] Agreed. I’d say that sums up a lot of things that I felt as well. Still though I stupidly thought I could get through to the both of them in a personal level, and I resulted in dragging myself down as a result. Even someone’s best intentions can result in even worse results. Sometimes by attempting to do something good, you unfortunately seem to become the villain. My good nature was my own downfall, and I got dragged into it so hard, that it almost became a somewhat abusive, toxic relationship, if I want to categorize it. Last thing I wanted things to be was this way. But I needed to learn that I cannot change the world, or everyone. I cannot try to make things better on my own, because I end up no better than them. [quote]To sum it up, I believe that Sols sowed division for power, influence, and popularity, I don’t think he gave one shit about the game or this community.[/quote] Seems like a good assessment, especially given his history. Which was a shame too because he did try and preach this camaraderie for the forums, but really was looking for his own self interest and power gains. Ehh even those with the best intentions can be corrupted by power. [quote]Kelly on the other hand, his motivation for starting shit is much more simple. He’s a man with a lot of time, mixed with an over inflated ego, along with serious personal problems that cause him to bleed out his obvious insecurities. He spends copious amounts of time writing essays to prepubescent teens on how they need to view the game in a way so that it doesn’t destroy itself.[/quote] I agree with that assessment. [quote]At risk of being a complete asshole myself, I believe that it’s pathetic and for all his talk about how toxic the community is, he is one of its largest contributors.[/quote] Without a doubt in my experience. He’s blind to his own hypocrisy. I mean he basically tells everyone to deal with it and leave, but then he’ll make his own post threatening to leave if Bungie doesn’t fix his concerns. He’s just as bad, if not worse than the people he accuses.

[quote] Agreed. I’d say that sums up a lot of things that I felt as well. Still though I stupidly thought I could get through to the both of them in a personal level, and I resulted in dragging myself down as a result. Even someone’s best intentions can result in even worse results. Sometimes by attempting to do something good, you unfortunately seem to become the villain. My good nature was my own downfall, and I got dragged into it so hard, that it almost became a somewhat abusive, toxic relationship, if I want to categorize it. Last thing I wanted things to be was this way. But I needed to learn that I cannot change the world, or everyone. I cannot try to make things better on my own, because I end up no better than them. [/quote] I can learn from this, I just really can’t stand bullies, especially smug ones... ones that hide behind civility. Doesn’t help that I can’t go anywhere without seeing him -blam!-ing with anyone who has a different view. But, I can do better. I’m going to let it go.