They are going to do one of two things: Remove the power cap altogether, realize that it doesn't have any impact on the game other than to cause player frustration. OR (more likely) They are going to tag any item that is re-issues, be it new or in your vault, with the same power cap so that your previous versions can be infused. There is no chance that the system will continue as it stands going into next year. I guess the third option is to completely revamp the systems thus actually retiring gear that is not in that system. As was done in Taken King, and when the introduced random rolls. The problem at this point? They screwed the pooch in how they implemented this system, so rather than being something people are excited about. Re-issues have been turned into a point of contention. So in reality, unless they do one of those three things, and yes I am being very specific, the game will continue to decline. They also need to reduce the number of seasons, Bungie is not capable of maintaining the current model.

Thank you for cataloging you’re cynicism.

Leaving things as they are is not an option. Even if they completely ignored the player complaints, the system in and of itself isn't sustainable. Creating enough content EVERY season to offset gear that is leaving has proven to be impossible for Bungie. And their current plan to augment the gain/loss, comes in the form of re-issues. The problem with re-issues, and with keeping old gear in the loot pool with it's original power cap, is the fact that these items become less and less compelling as time goes on. I keep getting drops from last summer. Under normal circumstances this would be fine. But the power cap is set from last summer. Which was a huge critique of thee system to begin with. The timer makes the drop exponentially less valuable. Which is LITERALLY in contradiction to what they are trying to do. So the dreaming city gear being added will be at full value next season, but unless they plan on updating the cap EVERY season, the value steadily declines, and puts them right back in the same spot, except they don't have an infinite pool of gear to re-issue. Nor do players have infinite patience. Next season is Vouchsafe, then what? Tigerspite(or whatever the Ar is). Players CLEARLY don't see value in this. Why? Because bungie has eliminated the incentive for gear by making it disposable. Players now know that anything can be re-issued, forcing an artificial grind again, all for a zero sum game. So, Bungie has no choice but to add value. The ONLY way to do that with a re-issue is to have it maintain it's FULL power potential until it is actually removed from the loot pool again. Which negates the point of the cap. And you know what? That's fine. There is a middle ground. No cap on items that are CURRENTLY in the loot pool. Cap applies to the LAST AVAILABLE season an item could drop If an item is re-issued, the cap is removed until it is retired again. Bungie maintains control of the available loot. The cap works as they proposed allowing gear to have a lifespan. And, most importantly players know that the gear they are obtaining will be useful for as long as it is obtainable. So, seasonal gear would always have a cap. One year. They could then re-introduce that gear later and treat it like normal world items. Vendor gear, could work the same way. Relevant, until it is removed from the pool. THAT is how sun-setting should work.

False choice. Bungie has no intention of leaving things as they are. They’re just going in a direction you don’t like and have been complaining about for almost a year. And. They. Aren’t. Backing. Down.

Kelly that is not true. From day 1, the critics have said that Bungie needed to UPDATE the whole system. Which is exactly what will ultimately happen. The fact that they put the crat before the horse and did a bad job implementing the pre-cursor is neither here or there. They HAVE to back down. The system is not sustainable, as predicted. So the question was never, whether or not something had to change. The question was in regarding how they planned on implementing those changes. This was the worst possible way FOR THE PLAYER. For Bungie, it allows them to put minimal work into existing content while they develop Destiny 3. Which is exactly what is happening here, they just won't come out and say it. And my guess, it is because they don't really know what they are going to be able to ultimately deliver. So we are once again paying to beta test the game. Which, honestly, wouldn't bother me if they were up front about it.

I’m not chasing you down this ideological rabbit hole you insist on perpetually digging. There is nothing structurally wrong with the game that more loot can’t fix. You just don’t like where the game is headed.

[quote]There is nothing structurally wrong with the game that more loot can’t fix. You just don’t like where the game is headed.[/quote] Other than the fact that it isn't sustainable, and it is virtually impossible for Bungie to demonstrate value in "new" gear because of how the stats and mods work. Does Borderlands have a "gazillion" guns? No. Does their loot system make it seem like there are more guns than are actually in the game? Yes. How? Stats on all items are both part dependent AND level dependent. So getting the same item, while possible, is extremely rare. This makes hunting for items, both a function of preference AND level. You are hunting for the most powerful version that meets your personal criteria. The game gives you options, you CHOOSE to pursue them. Destiny has FIXED stats that are capped and kept within a strict range. Perks and mods are while limited are also spread out across the whole item pool. This creates a FINITE number of variations. So once you hit a variant, even a "new" item is going to function more or less the same way, and with FIXED stats, there is no room for growth. But the game NEEDS to grow. In the past this has been done with revamps to the systems. Changes to how the gear actually works. That is the only option they have LONG TERM. No one denies this. The criticism has been that the interim measures are both pointless and actually detrimental to the players experience. This has been proven to be true. Suppose they plan on upgrading the Light subclasses. But rather than leave them as is while they work on them. They simply remove all but one option for each. Sure, ultimately they might create a new system that everyone loves, but in the interim, people would be forced into ONE way of playing. No one would like that extreme. Sun-setting and the power cap is a less drastic, but still annoying interim measure that will ultimately be phased out with the new system, even if that system does involve capping gear. They should have waited until they were ready to implement "D3" in terms of gear.

It’s is sustainable. And like is said I’m not going to chase your ususal parade of special pleading fallacies around in a circle. The problem here is simple. Bungie cut three years of loot from the game, and replaced it with two seasons worth. Loot motivated players are frustrated because they feel there isn’t enough to chase. Pvp players and collectors are mad because they really don’t want to play a loot game.... Everyone else is either fine, or understands that this is a work in progress.

That's fine, as usual, there is nothing backing your usual conjecture. And you do not understand service oriented development. Nor do you understand the relevant customer base. The players who do not engage with the systems, and are thus, minimally affected by those systems are not representative of the true playerbase. They are actually quite irrelevant in regards to the games actual system changes and they are not the focus of Bungies actual development. If they were, there would be no need to waste resources balancing the game, or dicking around with power-caps, etc. They simply do not care. These are the people who ignore mods, they look at a number and they pick which one is higher. They don't compare perks, they don't even bother putting shaders on their gear. The just PLAY destiny. These are the filler players, but they are not a sustainable player base, because they are not invested enough to care about Bungies hype, or future plans. The people who discuss the game? THAT is the player base. THAT is why Bungie devotes resources to balance, changes, hype, etc. You seem to not quite understand this. And you CLEARLY don't understand the issue. Quantity of loot is not the problem. Lack of loot incentive has always been an issue. There are lots of items that are available this season, and none of that gear is meaningful. Not because I say so. It's not meaningful because it will literally be replaced next season. And the season after that. And then at some point in the future, it will replace gear from another season.

....and they’re off. I’ve just danced this dance with you enough times to know that you don’t argue in good faith or with any intellectual honesty. The fallacies will keep coming out and the goalpost will keep moving in circles until I finally give up in frustration. The only way to deal with an unwinnable game is to not play. So I’m not playing. Heads you win, Tails I lose. Now go have fun.

Look, the only reason this goes in circles, is due to you never actually presenting counterpoints. "that's not how it works" lacking context or legitimate counters to points presented does not constitute a counter argument. And honestly, enough people read these discussion that are actually interested in discussion, that your responses don't ultimately matter all that much. Very few people are paying attention to what you are saying. Which is a shame, in the limited areas that you do understand, you tend to generate some good debate. But most of your counterpoints are simply the pot(you) calling the kettle(everyone else) black. We spend a whole summer debating this issue, and you were unequivocally proven to be wrong when Beyond Light launched. EVERY unaddressed criticism has hurt the game, just as the people who were raising those critiques said they would. And the ONLY counter argument that held any weight(this opens the door for newer and better things) IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. You said that they are not going to get rid of sun-setting. I responded saying that they only had a few options. That's it. I already explained why this is the case. And your response has been: "it's staying, get over it". No substance no counters, nothing. "They just need more loot". Again, this was countered by pointing out that the game is not lacking in loot(quantity), but it is lacking in a reason to chase it. As usual you simply refuse to have an actual discussion. No worries, like I said, my response wasn't really for you anyway.