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8/12/2020 3:57:48 PM
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[quote]The core grinding and farming for a looter-shooter, especially but not exclusively for godrolllled loot, is completely incompatible with expiry dates[/quote]
Absolutely wrong.
1. No loot game OWES you---or anyone else---a perfectly rolled weapon. Nor does it owe you the ability to keep it forever if you should be lucky enough to get one. Destiny is the only loot game that allowed this misguided notion to take root...and they did it because it covered UP for Bungie's inability to keep the game adequately supplied with content.
2. Every loot game retires power from the game. They have to do this because it is the only way to keep players chasing after loot. The only difference is that those devs who are actually SKILLED at these kinds of games NEVER tell you that you can keep anything forever (!). Plus they do a much better job of HIDING how they go about doing it. So they don't have to call ATTENTION to the fact that it has to be done, after telling you for five years that it wasn't necessary.
[quote]As they dial it away from its core the gameplay content has to take over for game satisfaction and that isn't happening.[/quote]
Wrong again. If you've ever played a Boderlands game, you'll find that you spend the vast majority of your time grinding a very small amount of content over and over again, trying to optimize your load out. Same with Diablo 3 and other loot games.
The reason why the formula works is because what drives play is the perpetual loot chase, and the power gains that come with it:
[i]Kill stuff. Get loot. Use that loot to kill even more powerful stuff. Get more powerful loot. Rinse and Repeat.[/i]
That is the fundamental game play loop that every successful loot game is built upon. The reason why Destiny has struggled at times, is because many of the devs at Bungie either didn't understand this.....or didn't RESPECT that this is how loot games are played.
The only changes that Bungie needs to stop using very low drop rates to cover up for a lack of loot. Having someone run 50 raids just to get 1K Voices or an Anarchy IS incompatible with a loot game, and Bungie needs to stop that crap. The game needs to be more generous.
The other change is that Bungie needs to OVERHAUL a weapon system whose perks were designed for PVP balance...and not PVE power-progression. That system has HAMSTRUNG this game for the last three years, and made it a struggle for it to create loot that is worth pursuing.
Without that, this game eventually self-destructs. Especially WITHOUT sunsetting. Because---as Smith said three years ago, "How do you make your tenth Better Devils interesting?" Only now its "How do you make your tenth god-rolled 150 rpm hand cannon interesting?"
The answer to both questions is, "You can't."
...and letting people keep weapons FOREVER, only complicates this survival-level problem for the game.
How you avoid that problem is how every loot game deals with the problem that players chase power...and you can't keep giving power to the player forever. YOu do it by taking power AWAY from the player in one part of the game, and giving it BACK to them somewhere else.
Which is what Bungie has been doing now for years. They've just haven't been frank with us about what they were doing and why they were doing it until now.
[quote]Indeed they're burning the candle at both ends, removing replayable content like Menagerie, etc whilst diminishing the collectability of loot and any sense of character progression - our loot was our characters.[/quote]
That sounds like a personal preference issue. Because, with games pushing nearly 200 GB in size, and consoles coming out that are going to be even LESS upgradable than what's currenly on the market....the inability to simply let this game keep growing forever is real.
Also no veteran loot gamer plays a game like this and expect to keep things forever, so that is not a design issue.
Lastly, Bungie realizes that failing to progress the character skill tree was a mistake....and one they seem to be addressing. But that was a design FAILURE that was foisted upon them by a design team that was designing Destiny for e-sport PVP, and not as a loot game or action-RPG.
Bungie has been in the position of trying to literally re-engineer this game from the ground up....while we continued to play it every day.
English
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Yamabushi999iD2 8,600 hours - 6/27/2024 2:46:22 PM
Deluded. That's the nature of looter-shooter. You grind for loot. No loot, no grind. Reduced loot, reduced value in grinding. Basic. No one mentioned 'forever' rather the lifecycle of the game, currently stated as having 3 year support. To reduce it is incompatible with the high levels of grind. This is the same with all looters, if you are set up to grind like a beast it's on the understanding you get to keep that item. Otherwise we wouldn't do it. Any retroactive reneging on that and making foundational world-rules paradigm shifts after player investment is already significantly made is a fundamental breaking of player trust. Catastrophic, irreparable. It's was a deleting of our characters. They don't 'have' to expire the loot at all, they CHOSE to. Nor did they supply replacement content to rebalance the books. Other looters have significantly less weapon variation to the 10,000+ single weapon variations possible in Destiny. Or they are set up to merely chase power levels via disposable loot, where the loot is plentiful and easily replaceable. Not so in Destiny. Not so for godrolled 10k variant weapons. They know this so that's why the game is moved to cheap, slot-machine giveaways to try to make up for its rapid expiry. It's a different crappy game and it doesn't work for a looter like Destiny. New light folks not yet bored of the same old content are fine as are those with no interest in min-maxxing builds via loot. A party game and a dull one for veterans. -
1. Thank you for explaining how loot game's work, but I've managed to figure that out for myself. 2. The Life Cycle of the game IS "forever" in terms of game design, and NO loot-based game can allow that to happen without self-destructing. In loot games, players chase power. But you can't give the player power forever. So you either are forced into runaway power problems Or you withhold power and suck the life and loot incentive out of the game. 3. You may get to keep the item, but you NEVER get to keep the power. In well-designed loot games, loot drops with a FIXED Item (power) level, that you cannot change. So the weapon loses its power as you progress through the game (since you can't infuse it)....and you are forced to eventually abandon that weapon or armor as a liability as it gets weaker and weaker. THAT IS SUNSETTING. Every loot game does it. Only other devs don't have to call attention to it, because they never made the promise that you could keep your loot for the life of the game, and keep increasing its power level (for all intents and purposes) infinitely. They don't do it because its POISON to a loot game. Its like dumping salt water on a garden. 4. Correction. YOU won't do it....and shooter gamers who aren't used to how loot games work won't do it . OTOH, veteran loot gamers and MMO players have always understood that this is how these games work, and ACCEPT that the fun is in the chase....not in keeping forever. So our reaction to Sunsetting has been 'About time, Bungie". Because we have understood how the LACK of sunsetting has badly warped this game, and created a number of otherwise UNSOLVABLE problems. This game will NEVER be healthy and will NEVER be able to provide loot worth chasing over any length of time without Sunsetting. Bungie has been doing it for years, they've just been less-than-candid about it. [quote]Other looters have significantly less weapon variation to the 10,000+ single weapon variations possible in Destiny[/quote] No. Most loot games have MORE variation than Destiny's shallow lootpool. Way more. [quote]Or they are set up to merely chase power levels via disposable loot, where the loot is plentiful and easily replaceable.[/quote] All loot in loot games are disposable. Loot in MMOs are more valuable and harder to obtain, but they still have to be retired if the game is going to continue on and be healthy. [quote]Not so for godrolled 10k variant weapons.[/quote] No game owes you a perfectly rolled weapon, or the "right" to keep it forever if you're lucky enough to get one. Only Destiny has been foolish enough to have gone "all in" on that misguided notion. Other devs (like Massive and BioWare) who chased Bungie down that same rabbit hole quickly realized what a game design mistake it was, and abandoned it. That shooter gamer trope has no place in the kind of game Destiny is....and Bungie wasted 5 years on a Fool's Errand whose failure was predictable beacuse it was inevitable. [quote]It's a different crappy game and it doesn't work for a looter like Destiny. New light folks not yet bored of the same old content are fine as are those with no interest in min-maxxing builds via loot. A party game and a dull one for veterans.[/quote] The irony here is that you're fighting to protect the source of your boredom. The fact that Bungie has to keep loot confined to a bland sameness....which consigns the grind to a sense of being unrewarding...because (without sunsetting) that's the only way to manage power creep. You're like the human trapped in The Matrix who fights alongside The Agents.
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Yamabushi999i
D2 8,600 hours - 6/27/2024 2:46:22 PM
You manifestedly haven't understood the core mechanics of Destiny, hence the attempt to explain to the contrary of your misunderstanding. You wish it to be a game it was not and are now finally happy it is cheapened partygame of handouts and who cares. Thats YOUR boredom not of veterans. Nor are all looters at all the same in terms of their handling of loot variation, power and progression. A simple false generalisation of looters. No, the game is designed for its lifecycle not at all for forever. The loot in endgame must work with the work/rewards over time. If nothing else population, platform progression, and competition progression encourage short lifecycles in all but extreme outliers. Reducing this loot lifecycle to mere seasons is simply incompatible with high levels of grind required for min-maxxing high-variation, random loot of Destiny. The investment to reward over time ratio no longer remotely squares. It never was a game of no-work, no rewards over time, fun of the chase. Never. Until you get that perspective, the perspective of min-maxxers, the perception of loot collectors, the perception of veteran hardcore players with high levels of investment you'll continue to be ignorant and dismissive of the problem and continue to believe this was a 'necessary' move and even that this particular broken ecosystem is the same as every other in its game type where it manifestedly does not remotely have the same rules, loot progression and setups. -
Edited by kellygreen45: 8/13/2020 10:19:49 PMI understand how the game works. I have 6000 hours invested in it, and I’ve been playing it since the D1 beta. But I’ve also been playing loot games for 25 years and understand how THOSE games work. So what [i]you[/i] need to understand is that Destiny is a [i]broken[/i] game right now from a loot standpoint, and that Bungie made a promise to this community that it was [i]never[/i] going to be able to keep. The idea that you could keep your loot and endlessly level it up and keep it eternally relevant is, and always was a FOOL’S ERRAND. When they added infusion to the game five years ago, I said that they were eventually going to be forced to take gear away from us. And now...after trying every other possible alternative... Bungie has finally been forced to swallow their pride and admit failure. That they were wrong and the rest of the industry was right all along. They painted themselves into a game design corner that they can’t get out of and all other possibilities other than Sunsetting leads to this game destroying itself. Now that Bungie can stop wasting time and resources trying to Reinvent The Wheel, they can use that energy to improve the game, and build on a [i]healthy[/i] and [i]sustainable[/i] foundation. Which is why, when they announced that they were finally going forward with Sunsetting, every loot game veteran on this forum had the same reaction: [i]FINALLY!!!![/i]
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Yamabushi999i
D2 8,600 hours - 6/27/2024 2:46:22 PM
You really don't as was the reason for the explanation. Ridiculous to the poibt of delusional. By far the majority of veterans on this forum were deeply opposed, remained opposed and/or left. The polled majority, here and on the biggest poll we have were opposed. Very few indeed remarked any jubilation and then largely for highly obvious confusions that Sunsetting will be some miracle panacea for their own Spare Rations/Mountaintop/... personal PvP problems and Sandbox issues. It provides nothing of the kind or provides merely the same offshoot benefit as not liking the picture on your wall so burning the whole house to ashes does provide. If you're switching to an appeal to authority - Ive played far more over the time Ive played, amongst the highest in the entire community, thousands of active hours PER YEAR. And Ive been DESIGNING games far FAR LONGER than that. But your shallow appeal in no way makes up for understanding. Repeating, endlessly, the same misunderstanding that Bungie made a promise it cannot keep is dull-witted and false. The calculated shift, the aforementioned player betrayal, from work for rewards over time suitable for endgame min-maxxing to handouts for instant gratification is a strategic decision, not even remotely a necessity. It serves some purposes in certain fashions whilst damaging and destroying other established game purposes where other solutions to powercreep, variations for promotional-discussion and rewards to chase were just as viable and yet also would manage to be in keeping with the precendance of how the game was fundamentally established to its contributing players. They chose that with its calculated losses. Now we have a broken game system, an exponentially reduced loot pool, a catastrophically betrayed community with remaining appeal for newlights and quickfix partygamers doing the same tired content in a smaller fishbowl. At least these will be in plenty supply, bless 'em. -
When you have to resort to insults in a debate you’re [i]losing.[/i]
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Yamabushi999i
D2 8,600 hours - 6/27/2024 2:46:22 PM
No win. I stayed away from insults over substantiated, logically points (as is my mo). So when I say your 'Which is why, when they announced that they were finally going forward with Sunsetting, every loot game veteran on this forum had the same reaction: FINALLY!!!!' is delusional - it really is. Not only did 'every' loot veteran NOT have the same reaction but it was a tiny minority. Posts in opposition from veterans including myself were legion, were so numerous relatively 'neutral' observers such as Houndish spoke of having never seen the scale of such opposition. And videos from top commentator veterans, in opposition, are plentiful. So factually wrong and self delusional: the reaction from loot veterans was nothing close to either unanimity nor overwhelming support rather tending towards the opposite. -
LOL. Self-awareness is really not your thing, I take it. When you explicitly state that someone you consider someone to foolish, stupid or a dupe because they don't agree with your view of things? You're insulting them. When you insist that you understand something better than someone else, when you have a FRACTION of their experience with it? Well I'll let you figure out for yourself how that looks and sounds. I've been playing these kinds of games for longer than most people on this forum have been alive. I know how these games work so well that I **PREDICTED** Bungie would fail...and precisely HOW they would fail five years ago. So please. Go on. Keep telling me how I don't know what I'm talking about, despite the fact that I knew five years ago that where this game is right now was an INEVITABILITY. Should be interesting.
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Edited by Yamabushi999i: 8/14/2020 2:13:26 PM
Yamabushi999i
D2 8,600 hours - 6/27/2024 2:46:22 PM
Hypocrisy. Cries about 'insults' - of which alleged 'insults' are facts of the matter, see your delusional 'every loot veteran' comment - followed by your insults. Mere hypocrite. Strawman attempt - you were not called stupid, foolish nor a dupe. What instead was stated was Repeating, endlessly, the same misunderstanding that Bungie made a promise it cannot keep is dull-witted and false." This too is factual. This cosy, convenient fantasy that there were no other options on the table is ridiculous, ludicrous, it's blinkered, lacking any credibility. There are (of course, entirely self-evidently) other options to provide other solutions to core issues behind Sunsetting. These are: powercreep, incentives, and gear variation sufficient for promotional discussion. That you endlessly repeat the same response, the same blatant (to everyone else, apparently) falsehood is what makes it dull-witted. With potential credibility anyone absolutely can (and they do) make various cases on the pros and cons of various strategic options, believing one to be to degrees 'better' in their estimation (suiting certain players....over others) to claim there is only one is a truly myopic bizarre position without any possible substantiation. I've already dismissed your non-starter appeal to (self) authority that you are clearly so keen on as an weak argument aside from being less as I mentioned. Overall you don't listen, before too long you'll be repeating the same old weak trash not even Bungie would try to pass off, let alone actually believe, that: Bungie made a promise they couldn't keep, they absolutely had no other option, that all veterans were unanimous in jubilant support, etc., etc. That is not close to even beginning understanding nor close to reality. -
[quote]That you endlessly repeat the same response, the same blatant (to everyone else, apparently) falsehood is what makes it dull-witted[/quote] Because the facts don't change, which is why I don't have resort to name-calling and insults to get my point across. ...and why I was able to predict five years ago that Bungie's effort to let us keep weapons relevant forever would fail..... ...as well as precisely HOW it would fail. A point that Luke Smith corroborated almost word-for-word in one of his recent Director's Cuts. But hey, keep calling me names. Just shows you're losing the debate on the merits.
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Maaan... This guy utterly destroyed you, Kelly. What a wonderful read it was. 💗 You lost this one especially hard too. This was really bad, even for you. Hey Kelly. Maybe it's time that you at least consider that you're not as smart as you think you are? You're not some lily among the thorns, not some brilliant genius surrounded by idiots. Most people here are just laughing at you because you are.. laughable. You're making a fool of yourself, and it's getting kinda sad. Thanks for the laughs though. 🌹
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Edited by Yamabushi999i: 8/14/2020 2:24:53 PM
Yamabushi999i
D2 8,600 hours - 6/27/2024 2:46:22 PM
Then you need to actually read, likely reread, your replies and distinguish between flat name calling 'your just a loser' and argument, at core: there are evidently far more than just one solution to all the real issues behind Sunsetting. Then that's just the starting point: which is better and for whom, is more debatable. -
Edited by Yamabushi999i: 8/14/2020 2:04:44 PM
Yamabushi999i
D2 8,600 hours - 6/27/2024 2:46:22 PM
Duplicate
