This isn’t looter it’s a FPSRPG they stopped making content for and replaced it with seasons and massive grind and time gates

It’s a looter with a badly designed weapon system that was designed for a pvp-oriented game.

You want it to be a looter but it might not be, as the game evolves this game might not be for you and that’s okay

I somewhat disagree. It's not so much there is a grind, but what you get for grinding. Back in d1 I had no problem spending a day doing planmat loops and some strikes and pvp so I could accomplish whatever. I sat on Mars for hours waiting for warsats to drop for sleeper. I spent days farming special planmats for the exotic swords. (I could go on here but you get my point I hope.) But here in d2 I dont have the same drive. I dont want to do say strikes for x thing. I dont want to do x public event to fill whatever bar for a quest I barely want to grind crucible/IB for whatever thing And why is this? What changed? I want to go back but I can't. I know I have changed but I cant help but feel the grind itself has changed to the point where the reward for it is not even worth it in the long run in most cases.

He's been playing for years...Kelly that's so self centered of you to say. There are countless people who've left Destiny alone came back and then left again. Its ok that some people are ok with running in the same maze looking for another cracker. Some of us want to run that maze in our own directions. I myself left D2 and came back and will continue to do so cause they don't care at all about their community. I said we should all stop playing for 48 hrs. No one will make BUNGIE listen and be held accountable

Loot games are repetitive by design and are intended for the enjoyment of those who enjoy the repetition. Don’t go into a hardware store looking to buy milk, then get mad at the store because you can’t find it. If you want milk, go where they SELL it. If you are playing a game that is not designed for your taste in gaming it’s not the devs fault.

We've been over this a million times but if you're gonna compare this as a looter game and say its doing a good job in that category im allowed to compare it to loot games that do it better and less painfully. Even as a loot game bungie is struggling to maintain the time invested/reward ratio balanced and thats why we see these posts.

[quote]Goodbye and Good luck. Not every game is for everyone. Some people loved Jedi: Falken Order. I got bored and frustrated with the clunky movement controls after about an hour and never looked back. Loot games are for people who want a long term relationship with a game and enjoy grinding familiar content. So most loot gamers have low-need-for novelty personalities ( I can eat the same thing for breakfast each day for weeks before it starts to bug me). But many shooter gamers have a high need for novelty. They get bored and frustrated with repetitive tasks and a lack of newness. Nothing wrong with that. Until you try to force yourself to do something that is repetitive [i]by design, [/i] and is intended for people who enjoy that repetitiveness. So while I believe you when you say that the grind isn’t fun for you, understand that there are people out there (like me) who do enjoy it.[/quote] This "loot games" thing. D2 is not the first loot game. D2 was seemingly a place for people who didn't like the other loot games. Else they would still be playing WoW.

But what Bungie tried has failed. ...and it failed years ago. They just hid that failure from us. Which is why I said last year that some people weren’t going to like the changes that were coming.

For the millionth time, this game has never been a Looter Shooter, or a loot game...whatever that is.... The original writer specifically said he wanted a space Odyssey....sci-fi MMO like game, but not like every other MMO where you just throw numbers at the screen. This game is what Luke Smith thinks it should be. I can promise you, he never said loot game, or Looter Shooter. He is a WoW head. Games have loot in them....every game does. That doesn't make them loot based, loot games, or Looter Shooters. That is why you feel this game has failed as a loot game. Because it never was.

The core grinding and farming for a looter-shooter, especially but not exclusively for godrolllled loot, is completely incompatible with expiry dates. As they dial it away from its core the gameplay content has to take over for game satisfaction and that isn't happening. Indeed they're burning the candle at both ends, removing replayable content like Menagerie, etc whilst diminishing the collectability of loot and any sense of character progression - our loot was our characters.

[quote]The core grinding and farming for a looter-shooter, especially but not exclusively for godrolllled loot, is completely incompatible with expiry dates[/quote] Absolutely wrong. 1. No loot game OWES you---or anyone else---a perfectly rolled weapon. Nor does it owe you the ability to keep it forever if you should be lucky enough to get one. Destiny is the only loot game that allowed this misguided notion to take root...and they did it because it covered UP for Bungie's inability to keep the game adequately supplied with content. 2. Every loot game retires power from the game. They have to do this because it is the only way to keep players chasing after loot. The only difference is that those devs who are actually SKILLED at these kinds of games NEVER tell you that you can keep anything forever (!). Plus they do a much better job of HIDING how they go about doing it. So they don't have to call ATTENTION to the fact that it has to be done, after telling you for five years that it wasn't necessary. [quote]As they dial it away from its core the gameplay content has to take over for game satisfaction and that isn't happening.[/quote] Wrong again. If you've ever played a Boderlands game, you'll find that you spend the vast majority of your time grinding a very small amount of content over and over again, trying to optimize your load out. Same with Diablo 3 and other loot games. The reason why the formula works is because what drives play is the perpetual loot chase, and the power gains that come with it: [i]Kill stuff. Get loot. Use that loot to kill even more powerful stuff. Get more powerful loot. Rinse and Repeat.[/i] That is the fundamental game play loop that every successful loot game is built upon. The reason why Destiny has struggled at times, is because many of the devs at Bungie either didn't understand this.....or didn't RESPECT that this is how loot games are played. The only changes that Bungie needs to stop using very low drop rates to cover up for a lack of loot. Having someone run 50 raids just to get 1K Voices or an Anarchy IS incompatible with a loot game, and Bungie needs to stop that crap. The game needs to be more generous. The other change is that Bungie needs to OVERHAUL a weapon system whose perks were designed for PVP balance...and not PVE power-progression. That system has HAMSTRUNG this game for the last three years, and made it a struggle for it to create loot that is worth pursuing. Without that, this game eventually self-destructs. Especially WITHOUT sunsetting. Because---as Smith said three years ago, "How do you make your tenth Better Devils interesting?" Only now its "How do you make your tenth god-rolled 150 rpm hand cannon interesting?" The answer to both questions is, "You can't." ...and letting people keep weapons FOREVER, only complicates this survival-level problem for the game. How you avoid that problem is how every loot game deals with the problem that players chase power...and you can't keep giving power to the player forever. YOu do it by taking power AWAY from the player in one part of the game, and giving it BACK to them somewhere else. Which is what Bungie has been doing now for years. They've just haven't been frank with us about what they were doing and why they were doing it until now. [quote]Indeed they're burning the candle at both ends, removing replayable content like Menagerie, etc whilst diminishing the collectability of loot and any sense of character progression - our loot was our characters.[/quote] That sounds like a personal preference issue. Because, with games pushing nearly 200 GB in size, and consoles coming out that are going to be even LESS upgradable than what's currenly on the market....the inability to simply let this game keep growing forever is real. Also no veteran loot gamer plays a game like this and expect to keep things forever, so that is not a design issue. Lastly, Bungie realizes that failing to progress the character skill tree was a mistake....and one they seem to be addressing. But that was a design FAILURE that was foisted upon them by a design team that was designing Destiny for e-sport PVP, and not as a loot game or action-RPG. Bungie has been in the position of trying to literally re-engineer this game from the ground up....while we continued to play it every day.

Deluded. That's the nature of looter-shooter. You grind for loot. No loot, no grind. Reduced loot, reduced value in grinding. Basic. No one mentioned 'forever' rather the lifecycle of the game, currently stated as having 3 year support. To reduce it is incompatible with the high levels of grind. This is the same with all looters, if you are set up to grind like a beast it's on the understanding you get to keep that item. Otherwise we wouldn't do it. Any retroactive reneging on that and making foundational world-rules paradigm shifts after player investment is already significantly made is a fundamental breaking of player trust. Catastrophic, irreparable. It's was a deleting of our characters. They don't 'have' to expire the loot at all, they CHOSE to. Nor did they supply replacement content to rebalance the books. Other looters have significantly less weapon variation to the 10,000+ single weapon variations possible in Destiny. Or they are set up to merely chase power levels via disposable loot, where the loot is plentiful and easily replaceable. Not so in Destiny. Not so for godrolled 10k variant weapons. They know this so that's why the game is moved to cheap, slot-machine giveaways to try to make up for its rapid expiry. It's a different crappy game and it doesn't work for a looter like Destiny. New light folks not yet bored of the same old content are fine as are those with no interest in min-maxxing builds via loot. A party game and a dull one for veterans.

1. Thank you for explaining how loot game's work, but I've managed to figure that out for myself. 2. The Life Cycle of the game IS "forever" in terms of game design, and NO loot-based game can allow that to happen without self-destructing. In loot games, players chase power. But you can't give the player power forever. So you either are forced into runaway power problems Or you withhold power and suck the life and loot incentive out of the game. 3. You may get to keep the item, but you NEVER get to keep the power. In well-designed loot games, loot drops with a FIXED Item (power) level, that you cannot change. So the weapon loses its power as you progress through the game (since you can't infuse it)....and you are forced to eventually abandon that weapon or armor as a liability as it gets weaker and weaker. THAT IS SUNSETTING. Every loot game does it. Only other devs don't have to call attention to it, because they never made the promise that you could keep your loot for the life of the game, and keep increasing its power level (for all intents and purposes) infinitely. They don't do it because its POISON to a loot game. Its like dumping salt water on a garden. 4. Correction. YOU won't do it....and shooter gamers who aren't used to how loot games work won't do it . OTOH, veteran loot gamers and MMO players have always understood that this is how these games work, and ACCEPT that the fun is in the chase....not in keeping forever. So our reaction to Sunsetting has been 'About time, Bungie". Because we have understood how the LACK of sunsetting has badly warped this game, and created a number of otherwise UNSOLVABLE problems. This game will NEVER be healthy and will NEVER be able to provide loot worth chasing over any length of time without Sunsetting. Bungie has been doing it for years, they've just been less-than-candid about it. [quote]Other looters have significantly less weapon variation to the 10,000+ single weapon variations possible in Destiny[/quote] No. Most loot games have MORE variation than Destiny's shallow lootpool. Way more. [quote]Or they are set up to merely chase power levels via disposable loot, where the loot is plentiful and easily replaceable.[/quote] All loot in loot games are disposable. Loot in MMOs are more valuable and harder to obtain, but they still have to be retired if the game is going to continue on and be healthy. [quote]Not so for godrolled 10k variant weapons.[/quote] No game owes you a perfectly rolled weapon, or the "right" to keep it forever if you're lucky enough to get one. Only Destiny has been foolish enough to have gone "all in" on that misguided notion. Other devs (like Massive and BioWare) who chased Bungie down that same rabbit hole quickly realized what a game design mistake it was, and abandoned it. That shooter gamer trope has no place in the kind of game Destiny is....and Bungie wasted 5 years on a Fool's Errand whose failure was predictable beacuse it was inevitable. [quote]It's a different crappy game and it doesn't work for a looter like Destiny. New light folks not yet bored of the same old content are fine as are those with no interest in min-maxxing builds via loot. A party game and a dull one for veterans.[/quote] The irony here is that you're fighting to protect the source of your boredom. The fact that Bungie has to keep loot confined to a bland sameness....which consigns the grind to a sense of being unrewarding...because (without sunsetting) that's the only way to manage power creep. You're like the human trapped in The Matrix who fights alongside The Agents.

You manifestedly haven't understood the core mechanics of Destiny, hence the attempt to explain to the contrary of your misunderstanding. You wish it to be a game it was not and are now finally happy it is cheapened partygame of handouts and who cares. Thats YOUR boredom not of veterans. Nor are all looters at all the same in terms of their handling of loot variation, power and progression. A simple false generalisation of looters. No, the game is designed for its lifecycle not at all for forever. The loot in endgame must work with the work/rewards over time. If nothing else population, platform progression, and competition progression encourage short lifecycles in all but extreme outliers. Reducing this loot lifecycle to mere seasons is simply incompatible with high levels of grind required for min-maxxing high-variation, random loot of Destiny. The investment to reward over time ratio no longer remotely squares. It never was a game of no-work, no rewards over time, fun of the chase. Never. Until you get that perspective, the perspective of min-maxxers, the perception of loot collectors, the perception of veteran hardcore players with high levels of investment you'll continue to be ignorant and dismissive of the problem and continue to believe this was a 'necessary' move and even that this particular broken ecosystem is the same as every other in its game type where it manifestedly does not remotely have the same rules, loot progression and setups.

I understand how the game works. I have 6000 hours invested in it, and I’ve been playing it since the D1 beta. But I’ve also been playing loot games for 25 years and understand how THOSE games work. So what [i]you[/i] need to understand is that Destiny is a [i]broken[/i] game right now from a loot standpoint, and that Bungie made a promise to this community that it was [i]never[/i] going to be able to keep. The idea that you could keep your loot and endlessly level it up and keep it eternally relevant is, and always was a FOOL’S ERRAND. When they added infusion to the game five years ago, I said that they were eventually going to be forced to take gear away from us. And now...after trying every other possible alternative... Bungie has finally been forced to swallow their pride and admit failure. That they were wrong and the rest of the industry was right all along. They painted themselves into a game design corner that they can’t get out of and all other possibilities other than Sunsetting leads to this game destroying itself. Now that Bungie can stop wasting time and resources trying to Reinvent The Wheel, they can use that energy to improve the game, and build on a [i]healthy[/i] and [i]sustainable[/i] foundation. Which is why, when they announced that they were finally going forward with Sunsetting, every loot game veteran on this forum had the same reaction: [i]FINALLY!!!![/i]

You really don't as was the reason for the explanation. Ridiculous to the poibt of delusional. By far the majority of veterans on this forum were deeply opposed, remained opposed and/or left. The polled majority, here and on the biggest poll we have were opposed. Very few indeed remarked any jubilation and then largely for highly obvious confusions that Sunsetting will be some miracle panacea for their own Spare Rations/Mountaintop/... personal PvP problems and Sandbox issues. It provides nothing of the kind or provides merely the same offshoot benefit as not liking the picture on your wall so burning the whole house to ashes does provide. If you're switching to an appeal to authority - Ive played far more over the time Ive played, amongst the highest in the entire community, thousands of active hours PER YEAR. And Ive been DESIGNING games far FAR LONGER than that. But your shallow appeal in no way makes up for understanding. Repeating, endlessly, the same misunderstanding that Bungie made a promise it cannot keep is dull-witted and false. The calculated shift, the aforementioned player betrayal, from work for rewards over time suitable for endgame min-maxxing to handouts for instant gratification is a strategic decision, not even remotely a necessity. It serves some purposes in certain fashions whilst damaging and destroying other established game purposes where other solutions to powercreep, variations for promotional-discussion and rewards to chase were just as viable and yet also would manage to be in keeping with the precendance of how the game was fundamentally established to its contributing players. They chose that with its calculated losses. Now we have a broken game system, an exponentially reduced loot pool, a catastrophically betrayed community with remaining appeal for newlights and quickfix partygamers doing the same tired content in a smaller fishbowl. At least these will be in plenty supply, bless 'em.

When you have to resort to insults in a debate you’re [i]losing.[/i]