I mean, option 1 is a solution that doesn't penalize anyone. That's a solution that can benefit every single playlist. Did you not read that? And then my second solution directly relates to IB. That right there will solve a lot of mercies. And your take on CBMM is wrong and filled with stereotypes from these forums. I'm an above average player. I prefer CBMM, but not because I want to farm people. I hate SBMM because it removes variety from my lobbies, penalizes my lower skilled friends for playing with me, penalizes me for playing with higher skilled friends, significantly increases my queue time, and introduces much more lag. Those are just facts. Why would I enjoy any of that? And I'm not the minority when it comes to CBMM supporters. The [i]vast majority of CBMM supporters don't want to farm people. They just experience the full force of the downsides SBMM brings.[/i] The fact is my experience as an above average player is just different than someone who isn't. A 0.7 K/D player fighting other 0.7 just isn't the same as a 2.0 fighting 2.0s, and it can't be equated apples to apples. So any argument that says the two are the same is pathetic and weak at best. Statistically, the experience under SBMM for average players should be the same under CBMM, with the exception that they'll face teams more often. (Solved by Solution 1.) So SBMM benefits the below average players the most, and it's benefits trickle off to zero by the time you get to above average and average players. So why should the experience of the player who play the most suffer 24/7 because some new guy wants to do bounties? That doesn't make sense. A better solution is to have outlier protection, so those guys that are new, don't play often, or just not that good can't match players on the other end of the skill spectrum at all, and then make stacks match stacks. In other words, [i]protect the experienceof the below average and casual player without damaging the experience of everyone else.[/i] That is something that SBMM just can't do.

[quote]In other words, [i]protect the experienceof the below average and casual player without damaging the experience of everyone else.[/i] That is something that SBMM just can't do.[/quote] Thats exactly what sbmm is supposed to do bungie just didn't implement it correctly which 80% of things they do they don't. If (.7 vs .7 )the better team wins( 2.0 vs 2.0) the better team wins how is that unfair? Cbmm (.7 vs 2.0) do you really think the same argument can fairly be used when it was Predetermined? The streamers and self proclaimed upper echelon hated sbmm because they couldn't make montage videos or they had to play with people just as sweaty. How is even (sbmm)unfair and uneven (cbmm) fair? The solution you mentioned can't work because they can't properly gauge skill. In which supposed sbmm I match with brave and below and I'm mythic sbmm is still flawed just now its just lawless in the crucible. Might makes right. How can the .7 be a 2.0 if he getting farmed by the 2.0?

That is [i]not[/i] what SBMM does, especially not strict SBMM. Again, 0.7 vs 0.7 is [i]not[/i] the same thing as a 2.0 against 2.0. It is not an apples to apples comparison. The 2.0 sees more lag, simply because his kill bracket is smaller. The 2.0 sees less variety in loadouts, since his opponent has a greater understanding of the meta than the 0.7. The 2.0 is much more likely to run into a stacked team, since they have inflated stats from always playing together. Even for good players, 6 randoms vs 6 player who [i]always play together[/i] is a disaster. The 2.0 is also much more likely to run into cheaters, for obvious reasons. (Still rare, but it happens.) And then there's really long queue times so the system likely grabs people on the edge of it's search criteria, meaning outliers in matches ans skewed lobby balancing. Sure. For the 0.7 vs the 0.7, it's the better team wins. For the 2.0 vs 2.0 players it's: 1. Was there lag? In who's favor? 2. Was there a stacked team? 3. Was there a smaller pre-made team that skewed lobby balancing? 4. Was there a cheater? 5. Were there any outliers in the game that skewed lobby balancing? Etc. Yes, those things [i]occasionally[/i] happen to the 0.7 guys under SBMM, but [i]at least one of those things was present in the majority of matches for better players. [/i] Why do you think lower skilled players are just now complaining about mercies in IB, when above average players were complaing about it all last season? What players are experiencing now in IB was literally focused on the above average skill brackets last season. Last season every single on of my IB sessions was 80% mercies [i]or more[/i]. And that was SBMM. So this whole 0.7 vs 0.7 = 2.0 vs 2.0 argument is just weak. Just isn't true. And guess what? With my solution of outlier protection, a 0.7 would never face a 2.0. 2.0 players are in the top 2% or so. A 0.7 is somewhere around the bottom 40%. He might face some 0.9s, 1.0s, 1.1s, but never a 2.0. Considering his teammates would also be in the same range, it would be a drastic improvement to what it is now.

[quote]That is [i]not[/i] what SBMM does, especially not strict SBMM. Again, 0.7 vs 0.7 is [i]not[/i] the same thing as a 2.0 against 2.0. It is not an apples to apples comparison. The 2.0 sees more lag, simply because his kill bracket is smaller. The 2.0 sees less variety in loadouts, since his opponent has a greater understanding of the meta than the 0.7. The 2.0 is much more likely to run into a stacked team, since they have inflated stats from always playing together. Even for good players, 6 randoms vs 6 player who [i]always play together[/i] is a disaster. The 2.0 is also much more likely to run into cheaters, for obvious reasons. (Still rare, but it happens.) And then there's really long queue times so the system likely grabs people on the edge of it's search criteria, meaning outliers in matches ans skewed lobby balancing. Sure. For the 0.7 vs the 0.7, it's the better team wins. For the 2.0 vs 2.0 players it's: 1. Was there lag? In who's favor? 2. Was there a stacked team? 3. Was there a smaller pre-made team that skewed lobby balancing? 4. Was there a cheater? 5. Were there any outliers in the game that skewed lobby balancing? Etc. Yes, those things [i]occasionally[/i] happen to the 0.7 guys under SBMM, but [i]at least one of those things was present in the majority of matches for better players. [/i] Why do you think lower skilled players are just now complaining about mercies in IB, when above average players were complaing about it all last season? What players are experiencing now in IB was literally focused on the above average skill brackets last season. Last season every single on of my IB sessions was 80% mercies [i]or more[/i]. And that was SBMM. So this whole 0.7 vs 0.7 = 2.0 vs 2.0 argument is just weak. Just isn't true. And guess what? With my solution of outlier protection, a 0.7 would never face a 2.0. 2.0 players are in the top 2% or so. A 0.7 is somewhere around the bottom 40%. He might face some 0.9s, 1.0s, 1.1s, but never a 2.0. Considering his teammates would also be in the same range, it would be a drastic improvement to what it is now.[/quote] None of this helps your argument. I litteraly can attach difference in skill under all your points and it would make since. All your excuses boil down to difference in skill and opponent of equal skill vs pale comparison. How does .7 vs 2.0 equal fair? If you can answer that intelligently and give a sound reason I'll concede but I already see you condemning yourself with your argument.

Well, for starters, [i]I never said 0.7 vs 2.0 is fair.[/i]. In fact, I have explicitly said that one of my proposed solutions is to [i]avoid that scenario[/i], while not damaging the experience for everyone else, which SBMM does.

[quote]Well, for starters, [i]I never said 0.7 vs 2.0 is fair.[/i]. In fact, I have explicitly said that one of my proposed solutions is to [i]avoid that scenario[/i], while not damaging the experience for everyone else, which SBMM does.[/quote] Its impossible to implement that. Ghey can't sbmm right so how could they unskilled when they don't have a reliable system based of skill? Sbmm was bssed off k/d which is flawed because it can manipulated especially with nefarious ways like cheating or a great argument you mentioned condensing with stacks. You understand stacks vs stacks should be a thing but not skilled vs skilled or unskilled vs unskilled. .7 vs .7= .7 (FAIR). 2.0 vs 2.0= 2.0(FAIR) its even skill so its even. .7 vs 2.0 the 2.0 wins its impossible for .7 to win against 2.0 its a clear difference in skill.

SBMM was based off of K/D, win rate, average kills per game, etc. Bungie calculate some numeber similar to ELO to determine that, but we can't see what it is. And removing outliers is way easier than SBMM. Putting in some criteria that says "Hey. This 0.6 K/D player with Bronze ELO can't match Mr. 2.5 K/D Platinum sweat lord." is not the same as matching everyone to a strict skill level. And fine. Ignore all the weak points of your 0.7 vs 0.7 = 2.0 vs 2.0 argument. Differences in skill can't make up for severe lag. Differences in skill can't make up for 6 random players, many not communicating, up against a 6 stack of players at the same skill level and coordinating. But sure. Keep on your "Fair is fair" argument. What about the other drawbacks? I can't play with lesser skilled friends in SBMM. Their experience is ruined the moment they have to match people closer to my level. All the loadout variety is removed from my lobbies under SBMM, meaning it's either run the meta or run uphill with the meta pushing me down. If I play with friend that's better than me under SBMM, it's either run the meta or die. And I might die anyways. More lag. 15 minite queue times. Just gonna ignore all those and keep saying FAIR IS FAIR? Or do the huge drawbacks that the most dedicated PvP players experienced under SBMM for the sake of a minority not matter? They do matter. The experience of the 2.0 matters. The experience of the 0.7 matters. That's why there has to be a middle ground, and the only middle grounds between CBMM and SBMM are CBMM + outlier protection, and choice. However, my original post was more focused towards the team stomping mercy farm than is IB so choice was left out. [spoiler]But a system with choice would have to evaluate skill and connection, but at a priority defined by the player. That way any player's potential pool of players is not limited to those who made the same choice. [/spoiler]

[quote]Hey everyone all the stuff you are complaining about the 2% were going through it so screw off. Stacks were an issue here and at my skill level so screw off. You getting sbmm won't change the fact that you're .7 and will alway .7 because .7 and 2.0 aren't the same. The cheaters was condensed to the 2% so lets spread them out and make it harder to find them because I don't wanna play against them(Who does??). I can actually have fun farming I mean fairly against people of weaker skill and use my other 2.0 friends to farm you. The Issues we went through are now yours so suck it up[/quote] You may as well had wrote this instead of beating around the bush. Cbmm doesn't anyone but the the top and the same disregard you have for the 98% we had for 2%. 2% don't pay bungie employees. 2% don't keep this game running. 2% is for the decline and definitely sunsetting. 2% is why pinnacles were made for the 2%. 2% was the best place to fix issues and containing them vs spreading out like a virus.

You said a whole lot of words for someone who didn't state a single fact. You sure are assuming a lot about me, and none of it is true. I have a friend with a 0.6 K/D. He has a disability. [i]I literally can't play with him under SBMM[/i]. He cannot even remotely keep up in my lobbies. Why would I [i]ever[/i] support a system that discourages playing with your friends? Why would I ever support a system that damages the experience of the above average and the most dedicated players for the guys doing bounites? And no. It isn't the top 2% that doesn't like SBMM. It's more like the top 35%. Average player experience is unchanged for the most part, with a few better players in each match on both teams. Bottom 35% suffers in SBMM. (That's math. Don't try and argue it.) I say "I prefer CBMM because SBMM has a whole lot of drawbacks, but would like to have systems in place to protect that bottom 35%." and you ignore the entire latter half of that sentence? Claiming me to be some sort of a stereotypical CBMM supporter? Dude. If anyone is a stereotypical anything, it's you. Coming in here as defensive and accusatory as you are. Most stereotypical anti-CBMM person I've ever seen. Too busy worried about your own problems to even see that I'm looking for a middle ground.

How is cbmm the middle ground? All the issues you mentioned were contained but now they are widespread. How is .7 vs 2.0 fair?? Tell me how is fair. How is 1.0 vs 2.0 fair? I face sweats all the time and I'm only 1.00. Getting not forgotten was hell because of the 2.0 gatelords in comp. Trials is dream to me because I don't stand a chance between cheaters or someone leagues above me. Most games end in mercy because of the skill gap and don't always be negative. I fail to see how cbmm is fair at all in regards to equality when disregards it in a negative way.

I literally never said CBMM was the middle ground. I said CBMM + team matching + outlier protection was the middle ground. A 0.7 would [i]never match a 2.0[/i] if outleir protection was in place. Even if they based the outleir criteria [i]solely on K/D[/i], something incredibly easy to do, it would work. I also mentioned choice in on of my replies to you, but that apparently fell on deaf ears.

[quote]I literally never said CBMM was the middle ground. I said CBMM + team matching + outlier protection was the middle ground. A 0.7 would [i]never match a 2.0[/i] if outleir protection was in place. Even if they based the outleir criteria [i]solely on K/D[/i], something incredibly easy to do, it would work. I also mentioned choice in on of my replies to you, but that apparently fell on deaf ears.[/quote] Because its impossible. If they couldn't gauge sbmm how could do your plan??? Ok let say .7 avoid sweats should 1.0 like me deal with yall? Your plan is impractical and cannot implemented sbmm solves the need for it but at ghe dismay of the 2% which is the issue. If you don't believe cbmm is the middle why are defending it like its right? You either agree with it, don't agree with it, or indifferent and you have not given points showing flaws of it but you actually defend it with weak arguments. I'll ask the question simply then and just it. How is cbmm fair.

You keep going back to CBMM like that's what I'm proposing and it isn't. And they could implement it easily. Give everyone some sort of rating. We'll say 1-10 for the sake of simplicity, 1 being the lowest and 10 being the best. 1 never matches 7-10. 2 never matches 8-10. 3 never matches 9-10. 4 never matches 10. 5 (average player) and higher can match anyone. Player base is highest here so most matches would be a majority of 5s, with some 6s and 7s. And that would be fair because at the point of being a 5, you know how to play the game and improve. If someone out maneuvers you, you miss shots, you make a mistake, or you don't pay attention to your radar or map, you should pay for it. Also, I'm not a sweat. Far from it. Stop making assumptions.

https://destinytracker.com/destiny-2/profile/psn/DredgenWes/overview 1.48 top 3% vs. https://destinytracker.com/destiny-2/profile/psn/Dredgen_Ignatius/overview 1.04 top 30%. How is it fair for a team of me vs a team of you? Stats don't lie the winner is clear. 1.48 not a sweat????? Top 3% not sweaty?? You said the 36% want cbmm but I'm the 30% and disagree strongly. Its not fair and cbmm forces unfair matchups, undeniable truth.

1. You call 1.48 a sweat? 1.48 is far from it. Really far from it. For one, I could not care less about my stats. I literally just go in and play. 2. There would never be a team of me vs a team of you. Without pre-made teams, lobby balancing would ensure that. With pre-made teams, my suggestion of team matching wouldn't put us together. So that arguemnt is irrelevant and pretty pathetic. 3. And your opinion is apparently more valid than the rest? Ya know what the polls have shown on Twitter? Here? Reddit? Polls with THOUSANDS of votes? General PvP population? More people prefer CBMM, but the [i]vocal minority[/i] prefer SBMM. And them there's a large chunk that sees no difference. Heck. One of those guys is in this thread right now. Average player who sees little to no difference. And stop with this "CBMM isn't fair." children talk. Should you match someone so far out of your league you can't learn from it at all? Should you match a 2.0 on your first PvP match ever? No, that is not fair, HENCE OUTLIER PROTECTION. But if you know how to play, know how to improve, and know how to keep up, you lose when someone is better than you. That's fair. You're [i]choosing[/i] to enter an [i]open environment[/i] where all skill levels are represented.

[quote]1. You call 1.48 a sweat? 1.48 is far from it. Really far from it. For one, I could not care less about my stats. I literally just go in and play.[/quote] It is, only 3% have it for a reason but you believe 2% is more essential then 98% so math is wasted on you. [quote]2. There would never be a team of me vs a team of you. Without pre-made teams, lobby balancing would ensure that. With pre-made teams, my suggestion of team matching wouldn't put us together. So that argument is irrelevant and pretty pathetic.[/quote] How so? I fight with and against people better than you. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/697577512577794365/742451601759010856/tiger_release_final_20200203_111013.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/697577512577794365/742451628648562699/tiger_release_final_20200203_111928.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/697577512577794365/742451671493247147/tiger_release_final_20190822_051409.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/697577512577794365/742451714526806076/tiger_release_final_20200615_234629.png Compared to the people I match with consistenty you may as well be the average and a 1.04 with 1.40 k/d opponents and and occasional streamer thanks to cbmm. [quote]Ya know what the polls have shown on Twitter? Here? Reddit? Polls with THOUSANDS of votes? General PvP population? More people prefer CBMM, but the vocal minority prefer SBMM. And them there's a large chunk that sees no difference. Heck. One of those guys is in this thread right now. Average player who sees little to no difference[/quote]. How is 98% the minority and 2% majority??????? [quote]And stop with this "CBMM isn't fair." children talk. Should you match someone so far out of your league you can't learn from it at all? Should you match a 2.0 on your first PvP match ever? No, that is not fair, HENCE OUTLIER PROTECTION.[/quote] Impossible poor excuse for a solution litterally sbmm-lite with no plan. [quote]But if you know how to play, know how to improve, and know how to keep up, you lose when someone is better than you. That's fair. You're choosing to enter an open environment where all skill levels are represented.[/quote] Its not fair when its a sweatlord or a halfarsed sweatlord. No ones first game should be some mountaintop sweatlord with gnawing hunger or felwinters's lie especially if they can't even get the guns anymore. The crucible is a volitile environment that is just plain counterproductive and counterintuitive. fun builds dont matter now thanks to the sweatlord who thinks quickplay is trials. At the end of the day your reasoning is not sound and your solution is just halfarsed sbmm. if the outlier was 0.0- 1.15 then guess what? You're back to the same scenario you complained about. You can't say sbmm can't work but the Wes sbmmlite can. Flawed by design,from a flawed logic that you can make up the skill gap by disrgarding skill and skill based matchmaking in the first place. Pointless venture just like this flawed and pointless post that be summarized in 20 words or less.

You can't base lag off of a k/d thats the ludicrous I've ever heard. Lag is unique to the person not k/d. If have garbage internet,play on wifi, or use a lag switch none of those have to do with k/d. The better player arguement proves my point that the 2.0 want to farm because he don't want to fight other sweats. Cheaters are everywhere in crucible and isn't k/d restricted. Your argument is k/d based which sbmm doesn't benefit people who care about k/d and flexing but people who want to farm you even used as a your at the top of your post. You don't care if fights are fair you only care about k/d which supports the fact not stereotype that the upper echelon just want to farm people. 2% should not dictate 98% thats how you have a decline. Trials is proving that. A mode for the sweats and they hate it for the same reason they hate sbmm.

First of allow, I'm using K/D as a representative skill metric. Bungie's real skill criteria probably uses that, assists, average life, deaths, deaths per minute,n kills per minute, etc. to calculate some number they use. But I'm not going to mention all that every time I say the word "skill." And Cheaters have inflated stats. SBMM reads the inflated stats. Therefore cheaters go into lobbies with high stats. Lag comes from poor connection, unique to the player. Correct. However, with a large player pool, like when you're average, all the connections are almost exclusively within you're own region. The system never has to expand. When you're in the top 5% or less, it has to expand to find a match of similar skill, simply because the player population at that skill bracket is so low. So you match people on China when you're in the US. With a peer to peer connection like Bungie's, lag. It is an absolute fact that higher skilled players see more lag in SBMM. That's just a fact. So yeah. Higher skilled players see more lag and more cheaters than lesser skilled players. That's just a fact.

Cheaters yes. Lag false. Lag is not measured by k/d but the equipment and can be easily be solved with dedicated servers which bungie do not use. P2P and poor equipment not k/d.