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5/28/2020 7:06:39 PM
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just going to point out that people wanted random rolls back. and they got it.
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Yeah but nobody asked for random rolls AND sunsetting but nice strawman I guess?
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if you've been paying attention, they have been sun setting all along. they just call it what it is now, instead of nerfing.
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Edited by Soular_Sage: 5/31/2020 7:25:58 AMThat's definitely intellectually dishonest. Sunsetting and balance adjustments (buffs/nerfs) are vastly different from one another. The only real example of some form of sunsetting in D2 was with the release of Y2 weapons with Forsaken. Most of the Y1 weapons, though not all of them, became decreasingly valuable as the expansion went on. Even so, there are still many good Y1 weapons. On top of that, they were all replaced with weapons that were markedly [u][b]better[/b][/u]. This new idea of sunsetting is so unpopular because most of the new weapons we've been getting are weaker than most non-pinnacle options. This gives many the impression that the new gear will be far weaker in the future.
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[quote]That's definitely intellectually dishonest. Sunsetting and balance adjustments (buffs/nerfs) are vastly different from one another. [/quote] not really. the both accomplish the same thing, but in different ways. [quote]This new idea of sunsetting is so unpopular because most of the new weapons we've been getting are weaker than most non-pinnacle options. This gives many the impression that the new gear will be far weaker in the future.[/quote] that's kinda the point. it will reduce power creep, and allow new items to be introduced without breaking anything.
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You know... [i]some[/I] power creep is both normal and necessary to keep players engaged. Now, adding weapons that fundamentally break the game upon release like Beloved, Recluse, and Revoker are examples of [b][i]bad[/i][/b] power creep. What Bungie's doing is over-correcting for power creep (in PvE anyhow). They're literally making everything artificially more difficult by adding activities with hard-hitting and higher health enemies with new powerful mechanics (Champ mods) [i]and[/i] systematically removing base power from our weapons and Guardian. Basically, we're getting more difficult activities, flat nerfs to existing weapons, and the new weapons we receive are (perk and stat-wise) weaker than our old weapons. That's literally the opposite of power creep. Also, think about something else... If sunsetting were a thing right now, and Bungie released pre-nerf recluse in opulence without touching it until this fall, wouldn't it still be a problem? It would still drown out all other SMG's, including exotics. It would still dominate in all forms of PvP and PvE. That still breaks the game. The difference is now we have to wait at least a year to stop seeing it in [i]PINNACLE[/I] content. It'll still be around everywhere else, because it was fundamentally broken upon release.
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[quote]You know... [i]some[/i] power creep is both normal and necessary to keep players engaged. Now, adding weapons that fundamentally break the game upon release like Beloved, Recluse, and Revoker are examples of [b]bad[/b] power creep.[/quote] exactly. this is how Bungie has decided to fix their issue. this is an issue they keep making. they create such good weapons in the beginning, it makes it hard to create something better. rememnger VoG guns? [quote]What Bungie's doing is over-correcting for power creep (in PvE anyhow). They're literally making everything artificially more difficult by adding activities with hard-hitting and higher health enemies with new powerful mechanics (Champ mods) [i]and[/i] systematically removing base power from our weapons and Guardian. Basically, we're getting more difficult activities, flat nerfs to existing weapons, and the new weapons we receive are (perk and stat-wise) weaker than our old weapons. That's literally the opposite of power creep.[/quote] not that i disagree with you, but how else are you supposed to increase difficulty? people already complain about everything, so what is left? [quote]Also, think about something else... If sunsetting were a thing right now, and Bungie released pre-nerf recluse in opulence without touching it until this fall, wouldn't it still be a problem? It would still drown out all other SMG's, including exotics. It would still dominate in all forms of PvP and PvE. That still breaks the game. The difference is now we have to wait at least a year to stop seeing it in [i]PINNACLE[/i] content. It'll still be around everywhere else, because it was fundamentally broken upon release.[/quote] i'm not sure what you are trying to say here. but i will try to reply from what i understand. Bungie wouldn't release pre nerf Recluse now, that is part of the plan with sun setting. they want to introduce new perks and items, without them needing to be more powerful, just so people will put down their 2 year old gear for it. its planned obsolescence.
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I see sunsetting as a bandaid "solution" to bigger issues including lack of creativity, bandaid and poor weapon balancing, and game design. I added the last bit to highlight an issue with a popular argument, that sunsetting lets Bungie create new and powerful perks without breaking the game. They can still break the game by introducing poorly designed stat monsters. The only difference is that they'll dominate the game for the span of a year. Recluse, for example, is not healthy for 3 months... let alone a year. It fundamentally changes how we perceive the difficulty and balancing of the game if the expectation is that weapons like this are appropriate in the game world, even if they don't last forever. I think the solution is to 1) ensure that weapons you introduce do not completely eclipse all other weapons within their category (i.e. recluse eclipsing all other SMGs), 2) balance weapons that are doing #1 with nerfs to the weapon itself, and 3) deliberately define a purpose for each existing weapon archetype (e.g. 140 RPM HC vs 150s) and promote those side-grades with pinnacles. There's literally only so many different types of guns you can create in a game like this without fundamentally changing how the game actually plays. Recycling the same guns with different skins gets old, really fast.
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[quote]I see sunsetting as a bandaid "solution" to bigger issues including lack of creativity, bandaid and poor weapon balancing, and game design.[/quote] it is a bandaid. this is somehting that should have been implemented since day 1. right now, it's the only way to move forward. plus they are being transparent about it. [quote]I added the last bit to highlight an issue with a popular argument, that sunsetting lets Bungie create new and powerful perks without breaking the game. They can still break the game by introducing poorly designed stat monsters. The only difference is that they'll dominate the game for the span of a year. Recluse, for example, is not healthy for 3 months... let alone a year. It fundamentally changes how we perceive the difficulty and balancing of the game if the expectation is that weapons like this are appropriate in the game world, even if they don't last forever.[/quote] i believe this is why they are sun setting gear. they realized they messed up by introducing pinnacle gear. with sun setting they will be able to create gear that doesn't need to be leaps and bounds better then previous gear. which is the same issue they had in D1 vanilla. at some point they simply can't top previous gear. it doesn't have to do with lack of creativity, its the opposite. its like my buddy and i used to bet over our football teams. every regular season our teams would meet twice. the issue we ran into was one upping the last bet. it got to where we would potetially go to jail, so we had to stop. [quote]I think the solution is to 1) ensure that weapons you introduce do not completely eclipse all other weapons within their category (i.e. recluse eclipsing all other SMGs), 2) balance weapons that are doing #1 with nerfs to the weapon itself, and 3) deliberately define a purpose for each existing weapon archetype (e.g. 140 RPM HC vs 150s) and promote those side-grades with pinnacles. There's literally only so many different types of guns you can create in a game like this without fundamentally changing how the game actually plays. Recycling the same guns with different skins gets old, really fast.[/quote] i agree, but its easier said than done, in a game with so many variables.
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Yeah, if rolls were still static we wouldn’t have to wade through so much rng, this our time would not be so disrespected by sunsetting
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the whole "disrespecting our time" argument is just stupid. its a video game, not a job.
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You can waste time on plenty of things that arent jobs? And generally people dont like wasting time on anything they invest into. So Im not sure what your point was trying to prove here?
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let me spell it out for you. people here act like this game is a job, and must be compensated for their time. it's a video game, not a job. you choose to play or not. no one is forcing you to invest time.
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So people want progression and the invested time to mean something? You dont say.... that still proves nothing. It can still be a waste of time without it being a job.
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not on these forums. everyone demands to be compensated for their time. it's ok, you must be new here.
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Exactly no one is forced here to do anything . They can quit the game anytime they want and do things they enjoy . People these days feels entitled to everything .
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Apply that logic to any other company you have a relationship with. If you get a crappy cup of coffee from Starbucks with free additions you didn't ask for or want.... you best believe you'd take that coffee right back and request for what you want. Do you say, "Oh you're entitled. You got a cup of coffee, so deal with it." Most of the people have invested time and, in most cases, money in a product created by Bungie. As with anything, if Bungie chooses to ignore feedback from the principal consumer of their product, they will fail.
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Edited by Fenix: 5/31/2020 7:35:35 AMBad comparison .
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Care to help me understand why?
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Also english is not my first language and so i may have made some mistakes and couldn't get some of my thought's through.
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First of all i agree this season was bad and they shouldn't have charged money in this season if the content was so lackluster or charged less. So the main topic was about sunsetting and i was stating as people should do something else if they are not enjoying this . So what i mean is that they had their fun , by they i mean most people with the previous guns and then you compared it with a 'bad cup of coffee ' so you paid for a coffee and it was bad so you want a better one that's fair . But the thing about sunsetting is that you had your fun with the guns, i mean most people and some are unlucky as bungie still charged the new players for content and then are sunsetting the gear i would say it's unfair for them and should get a refund .
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[quote]just going to point out that people wanted random rolls back. and they got it.[/quote] Random rolls was fine before. Still an absurd amount of crap in the roll pools. But still fine. This retroactive change though? That change is the issue.
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which change, the random rolls, or the sun setting, or both?
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Just going to point out we are back to 2 primaries because of Champions.
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how many activities have Champions?
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Only all the important ones.
