I posted this on Reddit a while back, and I thought I'd post it here too. Before really getting into it, let's establish some things so everyone is on the same page.
1) The Hive possess symbiotic/parasitic worms that make them biologically immortal, and the worms are agents of the Darkness who taught the Hive "magic."
2) After making the pact with the worms, the Hive gained access to sword logic. Sword logic is a paracausal (beyond physical laws) mechanism through which the Hive gain power, even godhood, from killing.
[quote]OBLIGATIONS. Once, I permitted Oryx to kill me so that he could gain the sword logic and overcome Akka our God. This left me trapped deep in my throne.[/quote]
3) The Hive must feed their worms through killing.
[quote]“I am at my end,” Savathûn says. “I plot and plan. But I cannot gather enough bloodshed to feed my worm. And the harder I try, the hungrier it becomes.” (Book of Sorrows, Verse 3:6)[/quote]
There's also this.
[quote]You Thrall, each of you will claw and scream, and kill what you can. Take enough killing to feed your worm, and a little more to grow. Tithe the rest to the Acolyte who commands you. You Acolytes, lead your Thrall in battle. Take enough killing to feed your worm, and a little more to grow, and take the tithe of the Thrall you lead. Then tithe the remainder to the Knight or Wizard who commands you. Thus you pay tribute. You Knights and Wizards, lead your followers in battle. Take enough devastation to feed your worm, and a little more to grow, and take the tithe of your followers. Then take another portion, as much as you dare, and use it for your own purposes. But if it is too much, your peers will kill you and take it. Then tithe the remainder to the Ascendant you serve. An Ascendant will be those among the Hive who gather enough tribute to enter the netherworld. They will pay a tithe to those above them. And thus the tribute will flow, up the chain, so that Savathûn and Xivu Arath and myself will be fed by a great river of tribute, and we will use that excess to feed our gods, and to study the Deep. Thus all worms will be fed — as long as we continue our crusade. (BoS, Verse 3:9)[/quote]
I used to wonder exactly what tangible substance (not just "killing") the Hive were feeding their worms with. From the quote above, it's something that could be taxed and passed up the chain of command in a tithe system, so the abstract concept of "death" and "killing" wasn't a satisfying answer. Before Warmind, I thought the answer was Light. The Books of Sorrow has numerous references to eating the Light, and Dredgen Yor implied that all living things have a spark of Light, so it made sense to assume that the Hive feed their worms with the Light of their victims.
[quote][u.2:6.4] You have no Light beyond the spark of your pathetic life. [u.2:6.5] But a spark is something. (Ghost Fragment: Thorn 2)[/quote]
I discovered the real answer during the Warmind campaign. In Strange Terrain, we find the Hive using crystals made of the solidified green flames known [b]soulfire[/b] to feed the wormgod Xol. Soulfire seems to be that tangible wormfood substance produced by killing.
Even beyond feeding the worms, soulfire seems to play a major role for the Hive power. Enraged Hive knights and fire-casting acolytes burn with green soulfire flames, Hive spells and seals glow green with soulfire, and in his throne world, the Hive god Crota appeared composed of soulfire. Hive even explode with green flames when they are killed with headshots. This all suggests that the powers of Hive are tied to soulfire. Since Hive power comes from sword logic, and soulfire seems to be the form this power takes, it stands to reason that soulfire is a product of sword logic. Interestingly, another passage from the Books of Sorrow links power gained through sword logic (cutting passages through space) to soulfire.
[quote]SAVATHÛN said, Auryx my brother and king, I have studied the wounds cut by the Worm our God. Also I have studied the manner of your death and return. These two things are the same, for they are predicated on death and the passage through cut spaces. Let us practice the sword logic until we are sharp. We may then cut our own wounds and step through. But XIVU ARATH said, sister, I am already sharp, look, my sword cuts into another space. And she cut her way between moons through [b]green fire[/b] and joyous screams. (BoS, Verse 4:5)[/quote]
The first quote under 3) from Savathûn illustrates the ever-growing hunger of worms, so how is Nokris and his army killing enough to make the soulfire needed to feed a gigantic worm god? Where is all that soulfire (and by extension, killing) coming from? The answer lies in Nokris' necromancy. During the Strange Terrain strike against Nokris, Ana Bray sometimes says this:
This Nokris is even worse than we thought. We're talking [b]necromancy. Endless cycles of death and rebirth, all in the service of a giant worm god[/b].
I believe Nokris kills the Hive under his command, brings them back to life, and repeats this process to create the "endless cycle" Ana spoke of. This allows him to produce vast quantities of soulfire from simply killing the same few Hive repeatedly. There has to be some kind of diminishing returns or limits on this practice though, or Xol would have been a lot more powerful.
[b]TL;DR - soulfire is a type of substance generated by the Hive when they practice the sword logic by killing. Soulfire is used to feed worms, but also it's energy source for Hive powers and spells. Nokris uses necromancy to kill and resurrect the same underlings repeatedly, and this killing grenerates soulfire used to feed the wormgod Xol.[/b]
[b]For more theories by me, I refer you to the [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/183288968/0/0]Collected Treatises of The Warlock KAGEHOSHI[/url].[/b]
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There is a problem, IMO, with this theory. If the soulfire is [u]directly[/u] tied to the feeding, and the tithing, and thus the Hive's ultimate strength... then why did the Vex grow stronger when they invaded Oryx's first Nether Realm? The Vex quickly learned about the Sword Logic, and once they built the mind around that logic, they proceeded to mass genocide the Hive in vast quanities to gain power. This quickly allowed the Vex to overcome the efforts of Crota and his sisters, to the point the siblings thought they would be devoured for their failure to halt the Vex. This power passed to the Vex, and to the Vex mind, howerver, they never changed themselves to further mesh with Hive magic. As long as they were within the Nether Realm, they were empowered, and thus, they were strong. -- The other problem I have with this theory also comes from this example. In the text, the Hive and Vex fought endlessly with neither of them every gaining the outright advantage. The Vex slowly pushed further, building their constructs and reality, while the Hive pushed back just as vigorously but never enough to overwhelm the Vex. It is also safe to imply that Sword Logic did not pass to the Vex [u]outside[/u] of the Nether Realm before they entered. If they had been able to affect the entire Vex collective with the transference of Soulfire as they abused the Sword Logic (which could have been transferred if there was a 'tangible form' of Sword Logic) then the Vex would have outright destroyed the Hive without much pause. -- So unless the Logic is completely seperate from the Soulfire, I don't understand if it can really be correlated to power. If you kill using the Sword Logic, is the soulfire ONLY to feed the worms? Remember, in the tithe system, the Hive keep some for themselves as well. It's not 'just' for the Worm Gods. It's a source of strength. It is how the Hive physically grow and become stronger, as well as the Gods. -- I guess I'm trying to say this... what grants the power? The death? Or the Soulfire? -- If you kill a dreg (say you're a thrall), do you become stronger because you killed the dreg, or do you become stronger because you ate some of the Soulfire from killing the dreg, produced by the logic? If it is the first, then the Soulfire [u]is not[/u] directly tied to Hive strength, as that is not where the power comes from, and that soulfire is a mere 'substance' produced by that power that just so happens to feed the worm Gods. This would explain why the Vex outside the Nether Realm could not 'premetively' indulge in the Sword Logic. However, this also means that the Soulfire is not the source of Hive magic. Perhaps... it is rather Hive magic that produces Soulfire... [u]using[/u] the sword logic, but not [u]from[/u] the sword logic. (Much like how you can use a magnifying glass to create flame, but the flame is not 'made' from the glass') I think this makes the most sense. Soulfire is a tanigble substance, but only [u]as a result[/u] of the Sword Logic and Hive magic/power, and [u]not[/u] the source of it. -- If it is the second, then the Soulfire [u]is[/u] directly tied to the power of a Hive creature. However, does this mean that it is simply 'who gets the soulfire' that becomes powerful? If a dreg is killed by a thrall, but a Knight steals the soulfire, does only the Knight become stronger? Also, since the Vex were using the Sword Logic, is it also surmise to say that they were able to 'create' soulfire to then transport? The only explianation is that the Vex did not 'eat Soulfire' but somehow still used Soulfire to gain the power of the Sword Logic. However, the Soulfire could not be transferred outside of the NetherRealm to reinforce more Vex. I don't think that this one is likely though.
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Very interesting post, I look forward to reading more of your stuff
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Sword Logic is more of a philosophy that Oryx and his sisters' Hive follow. It's not what gives them access to more power; they use it as a discipline to ascend to greater strength. It's the idea that if you want to survive, you need to be stronger than everything that comes before you, and if you die, you deserved to die because you weren't strong enough and your death provides nourishment for whoever or whatever proved to be greater. It's the logic the Worm Gods follow.
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THIS! See why can't Bungie put this -blam!-ing info in the game!? Why must we use context and lore cards just to understand what the hell is going on in the story and why we're doing all of this.
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Interesting. Love lore like this
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Nokris found a cheese and got banned.
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This is very insightful!
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Kinda like Ronald Reagan's trickle down economics in reverse. Although I like how you laid this out, seems like you are on to something.
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I wonder what color Soul Fire would burn Smores? [spoiler]The world may never know[/spoiler]
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Edited by Eqitx: 6/24/2018 5:19:22 AMOk, time to go back to schoolwork now, son
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You put in more thought than bungie.
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Good read. Secondly the title of your post sounds like a book title.
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Edited by w3rdblader: 6/23/2018 4:23:03 AMIt feels like you're misunderstanding a core concept. All worms aren't fed by death. Oryxs worm, and it's subsequent worms spawn, get fed by killing. Each of the 3 sisters worms are fed by their true desire. Oryx has a worm fed by destruction, the others are fed by exploration and knowledge, iirc. It's been a long time since I've been through grimoire cards, but I'm fairly certain about the worms being fed by different means. But what do I know, apparently the stranger is Willa bray, so shit from D1 can be anything in D2...
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As always a good read Kagehoshi☕ 😎. Do you think soulfire is a physical manifestation of an organism's lifeforce? If the Hive feed their worms through killing then perhaps they are harvesting life energy.
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Good post
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Not quite. The "tithe" is just Bungie's way of making Experience Points applicable as a story/lore element rather than just a gameplay element. It is also a Pyramid Scheme, which is the ultimate form of evil, which is why the Darkness ships are Pyramids/Triangles. No need to over think the lore of this game, the writers play musical chairs all the time.
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Nice work explaining this. Well-written. Interesting read.
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That's really interesting and actually makes a lot of sense. I always wondered if the hive could create tithing to their worms just by killing each other
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Really great read! Thank you guardian
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This was a great read thank you for it! Question though, do you think Norris would be able to bring himself back as he did those under him? He is a Necromacer after all.
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[quote]You Thrall, each of you will claw and scream, and kill what you can. Take enough killing to feed your worm, and a little more to grow. Tithe the rest to the Acolyte who commands you. You Acolytes, lead your Thrall in battle. Take enough killing to feed your worm, and a little more to grow, and take the tithe of the Thrall you lead. Then tithe the remainder to the Knight or Wizard who commands you. Thus you pay tribute. You Knights and Wizards, lead your followers in battle. Take enough devastation to feed your worm, and a little more to grow, and take the tithe of your followers. Then take another portion, as much as you dare, and use it for your own purposes. But if it is too much, your peers will kill you and take it. Then tithe the remainder to the Ascendant you serve. An Ascendant will be those among the Hive who gather enough tribute to enter the netherworld. They will pay a tithe to those above them. And thus the tribute will flow, up the chain, so that Savathûn and Xivu Arath and myself will be fed by a great river of tribute, and we will use that excess to feed our gods, and to study the Deep. Thus all worms will be fed — as long as we continue our crusade. (BoS, Verse 3:9)[/quote] Sounds like Amway.
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Nice read I did lol at what the hive really are though. Take some, pass the rest upward. They’re a multilevel marketing company. Hive = the AMWAY of death
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Necromancy directly spits in the face of Sword Logic. This is why Nokris was branded a heretic. He sought power [i]beyond[/i] the Sword Logic.
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This helps explain why Norkis’s Necromancy is considered blasphemy, nice job with the evidence. I hope you join the discord.
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Now Nokris's death actually meant something. Very interesting, although that also makes you wonder if necromancy is only heretical to Oryx's tithe, or all of the original Hive gods.
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Good stuff thank you