You go through the portal and you get raid materials, so yeah, you are in the raid.

Read the whole conversation before trying to jump into the middle of it.

I did. You are officially in the raid as soon as you go through the portal. Darkness zone or not, that's totally irrelevant.

Then why did you reply with that comment? I already agreed to that point with the other guy.

Because I like to argue.

Darkness zone in a jumping puzzle. YEAH OKAY. That makes perfect sense to have. Make a petition for that to change

The first darkness zone doesn't appear until after. There isn't one before which could easily have one. Also I like how you conveniently ignored the fact that the mission objective doesn't activate until the Totems. According to the creators themselves, that's where the raid officially starts.

In the directory you click rings of saturn dreadnought whatever it is. Then click Kings Fall raid. So yes you are in the raid just because it doesn't say "kings fall objective" doesn't mean you aren't in the raid. Yes the first darkness zone is at totems.

Fine. We can tack on one more jumping "puzzle" and a very short and easy enemy encounter. Needles to say, King's Fall still had way to many bosses that were to mechanic heavy and it lasted to long. And obviously a fair amount of people feel that way as well. Because... 1. We wouldn't be having this discussion because that's what the OP's whole post is about. 2. Bungie acknowledged and admitted all these things about King's Fall, addressed the community on them, and made changes based on feedback. Seen in WotM. It's shorter, has less bosses, less emphasis on heavy mechanics, and the loot, although not what raid gear should be, is much much better than that of King's Fall. Same for VoG and at least the loot and mechanics aspect for CE.

Most people prefer a raid like wrath because they aren't that good and also get frustrated easily, so they don't want to spend too much time in a raid. That was one of the issues Bungie saw with KF. It was too long and too mechanic heavy. It's not their fault that people suck, but they had to change it to get more players. It's sad because raids should be like KF.

Raids are supposed to be challenging though thats why you are "supposed" to need a 6 man fireteam

King's Fall isn't an actual true challenge. A challenge is also supposed to be fair. Like the Artorias boss fight in Dark Souls. King's Fall is full of artificial difficulty. Which is a fake challenge. To many bosses with way to many mechanics in an activity that lasts to long is artificial difficulty at its finest. After the failure of a raid called CE, also not a challenge but on the opposite end of the spectrum from King's Fall, Bungie thought the solution was to make it longer with way more mechanics but that just flooded the raid with way to much BS. How is it an actual challenge when your team has to wipe because 1 guy accidentally fell off of his platform while trying to dodge damage? I see it more as artificial difficulty crap. Whereas losing 3 people and still managing to destroy the oracles, open the portal, and acquire Time's Vengeance is still quite a difficult challenge but a fair and possible one at that as long as there are at least 2 people alive.

Uh, that's not artificial difficulty. That's a raid where every player has to hold their own. It's a raid where making up for other people's mistakes is not easy. It's a raid that forces the team to adapt when something goes wrong. You are saying that giving each player in a TEAM game a big responsibility is "artificial difficulty" haha you are a joke.

Over 200 raids completed, near max grimoire, completed both Y1 and Y2 Moments of Triumph, and I'm able to get and maintain above a 1.0 k/d and I'm a joke? Right. Makes perfect sense. I'll say this one last time. The mechanics from King's Fall demand perfection when in return the encounters should be flawless. However they aren't. Not even close. I don't understand why you seem to think player perfection in encounters that are far from perfect is a real and fair challenge. And how you don't think losing 1+ people and still having a chance and mangling to pull off the clutch play in an encounter designed for 6 isn't. You also seem to think I don't want a challenge for whatever reason. Well that cannot be further from the truth. Because of the reasons I listed in my first paragraph up there and there's a reason I've been able to make all these Souls' references. Because I've played and beaten every single Souls game available on Xbox on my account multiple times and played and beaten Bloodeborn on my friend's PlayStation 4. Just because you like King's Fall doesn't mean that it's perfect. King's Fall falls under the failure category with Crota's End simply because it lacked something everything that's supposed to be difficult should have; a fair challenge. And when I say "fair challenge" I don't mean an easy or watered down challenge like CoE. There's a reason I've been saying "VoG from Vanilla Destiny" and then comparing it to the Knight Artorias boss fight from Dark Souls.

Why is your fall back "200 raid completions" ? you have a couple kings fall completions only 2 wotm and over half of your "raid completions" are Croats End.

I'm not saying that to justify my arguments. I'm saying that because he called me a joke. Yeah that's what happens when this game won't give you the Crux of Crota until after 100+ completions.

Alright alright fair I was just wondering and it didn't take me nearly as long to get a crux but damn the drop rate sucks

I got really excited when you mentioned Artorias. Most fair and hard boss fight I have ever fought.

Agreed. That boss fight is incredible.

If Bungie can nail a boss fight like From Software nailed that entire DLC. Manus, Artorias, Kalameet? Holy hell, those are some of the best bosses in the whole game.

Definitely. I still remember fighting Artorias for the first time. I entered the arena and the initial cutscenes sent shivers down my spine. And the fight, well let's just say he kicked my ass a couple of times. About 6-7 I think. Until I finally managed to beat him with only 1 Estus left. His charge always seems to get me. And the front flip slam is so cool. And I'm sure like most people, Kalameet killed me the first time I entered his arena. I had no idea how to get him to land and he proceeded to grill me into a very well done Chosen Undead. After that I left and went on into the Township and found the key to unlock Gough from the Tower. I didn't know it at the time and kept going through the rest of the area until I made it to the Chasm of the Abyss. I which point I may have accidentally fell off of a ledge. I went back then found what the key unlocked. I talked to Gough and had him shoot down Kalameet. It's a damn cool cutscene but I really love dragons so it hurt a little inside. Although that hurt quickly transferred to the outside because it took me about 10 deaths to bring down Kalameet. Then it was back the the Abyss. I didn't find Sif until a different playthrough so I missed out on that my first time through. But I did find Manus rather quickly and my God did I kinda freak out. His entrance cutscene is so intimidating. It's one of my favorites. His fight for me was the hardest in the DLC. I died about 5 times to his hexes until I finally gave up and looked online on how to counter them. Needless to say I was kinda mad about that. I went back and got the Silver Pendant and tried Manus again... ...and still died about 3 more times. God that DLC was so incredibly difficult but I loved each and every second of it. Especially those 3 incredible bosses. The only boss fight I like more is Ornstein and Smough but that's a bandwagon at this point. I guess once you can finally find a 2 on 1 gank fight that's fair and fun but still extremely challenging, one of the hardest things I've ever done in video games, people like to hop onto it. And what's funny is this all happened my Sophomore year in high school which was 4 years ago and I can still remember this experience like it was yesterday. And yet with Destiny, the only thing I remember from when it first came out and I was in the end game 2 years ago is a part of the first time I beat VoG. I just wish Bungie could design much more memorable encounters. VoG started off that way but over time Destiny has just had more and more forgettable content.

Artorias' cutscene made me feel so scared and excited at the same time. I lost about 7 times, and I DO intend to go back and play Dark Souls 1 again. When I first played, I used the HELL out of shields, so initially, I never rolled to dodge anything, I just tanked it. I beat the game relatively easy, but after beating Dark Souls 2 (Meh) and Dark Souls 3 (Aka the better sequel), I began to only use rolling, and it made the game 10x better. Dark Souls 1, 3, and even 2 at times, made me feel so accomplished and so strong and weak at the same time. Many cutscenes gave me shivers (Yhorm's cutscene with Siegward along side you anyone?), Gwyn and Soul of Cinder's infusion, Artorias finally scream, Sif's howl for justice and even when Sif recognizes you after you save his life in the DLC... That's something Bungie has YET to recreate even remotely.