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10/17/2016 7:09:48 PM
16
Why I dont' think you can use Y1 as a reference to PVP weapon balance
In so many of the threads of nerfing/buffing/balancing you hear people talk about "Year 1 this" and "Year 1 that."
"This weapon was better in Y1 because of XYZ".
There's a problem with this though is there not?
When Destiny came out the PVP mode was a side bar to the PVE content. A place where guardians could go to engage and [b]practice [/b]their skills against real people.
Problem is that ALL of the weapons were tuned to Bungie's (original) idea of what they should be for PVE. There was actually ZERO balance in terms of PVP play.
It was OK for a while but then people playing PVP started screaming about weapon effectiveness especially at ranges that overlapped other weapons.
Enter Patch 1.1.1. Six full months after release and then 2.0 four months later. Quite possibly the 2 patches that have defined the 'nerf' mentality (Shotguns hit in both, snipers only Final Round Change in 2.0).
That's when the nerfs started and likely around this time they also decided NOT to separate PVE and PVE weapon balance.
So herein lies the problem. There really is no Y1 in terms of PVP balance. There was Y1/2 but that was before PVP became a true standalone mode with it's own legs but everything after that is nerfs and rotating meta.
So in reality this Y1 that people speak about is really PVP play using weapons that were tuned to be powerful against PVE AI enemies not human controlled guardians.
I end this with saying that this is my personal take and opinion on this.
However this is based on what we know of release through Y1 and what was done within that time.
Thank you for your time guardians.
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3 RepliesNah. House of Wolves PvP was actually decent, and a good enough reference point for Y1. Sure was a hell of a lot better than how PvP is right now. The only real major problem was the fact that Thorn/TLW was broken and Felwinter's was ridiculous. There were also a few weapon archetypes that suffered like AR's or low-impact hand cannons. A few minor tweaks and fixes and it would've probably been the best that Destiny's PvP could've ever been.
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1 ReplyI think Bungie is really going to shoot themselves in the foot with this insistence that the PvE and PvP experiences should be as equal as possible. I've been saying for a long time that the only way to achieve proper balance in PvP is to have a standardized set of weapons for that mode. Because right now the perks on your gun can absolutely be the difference in you winning or losing a gunfight. Or some archetypes are just impossible to balance because of their rate of fire. They either kill too quickly, or too slowly. So the only way around this is to let everyone have whatever toys they want in PvE, but for Crucible say "This is it. You get three or four of each weapon type to choose from. These are the stats, these are the perks. They don't change." And then have a mayhem mode where anyone can bring in anything, just to keep everyone happy.
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As someone who used the Thorn like a mad man in PvP, I do miss that gun. It is a pale reflection of what it use to be. TBH, the gun was not even that bad, but it would cause such a panicked reaction in so many people that took a hit that they would essentially kill themselves via piss poor decision making. It was actually pretty funny watching people try to run and get stuck in a corner, when they could have easily finished me off with a couple of rounds of [b]BASICALLY ANY GUN[/b].
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I want House of Wolves crucible without TLW and Thorn being op. Also no Final round on snipers and -blam!- Felwinters lie. [spoiler]apart from that, it was pretty good.[/spoiler]
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9 RepliesHere ill be specific about the yr1 thing ur talking about. Bring back house of wolves crucible. Better?
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5 RepliesSo you're trying to tell me that the PvP that launched with 8 well balanced maps was an afterthought? I keep hearing this rhetoric and I've seen no one substantiate it with any actual communication from Bungie. It probably took months if not years to polish these maps. I would hardly call them and afterthought or tacked on. In year one the PvP was great because our tools felt effective. When you shot something it died. Handcannons worked, ARs were meaty and powerful and scouts and pulses had their place as well. All I've seen since then is my feeling of power being stripped away from my guardian with every patch. Guns function, albeit laboriously, and most subclasses have been neutered to the point of mediocrity. This is the reason special weapons are dominating crucible right now--primary weapons simply aren't that fun to shoot anymore.
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2 RepliesAgreed that's why mythoclast was such a monster. There wasn't all that much extensive pvp balance testing. And people seem to forget we actually have a lot of diversity now. There were times of relevancy for all weapons types but there was usually a huge cycle of only a few weapons. Autos dominated early crucible but people didn't have as much or werent that familiar with weapons yet for much of a broad meta to develop. Then the fusions were cross mapping. They took a hit with the autos that like pulses were unusable. All archetypes were pretty useless. Shotguns took over and handcannons started to shine. Shotguns took hits and handcannons got better with little help to autos till HOW when snipers really hit their stride. Finally high impact pulses got some help creating the infamous last word, thorn, ephrideet, and red death messenger meta. Scouts all along were average but usable. Then ttk hit and most of us know that well. I've said for a long time year one is looked at through some pretty rose tinted glasses here.
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It was just fun in year 1 because of the exotics and a blue auto rifle.
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1 ReplyI agree with your history, which is 100% accurate. Not sure the current crop of players would know or care about the difference. What they are seeing in the current Matador meta is very reminiscent of the Felwinter's Lie era, but again, new players wouldn't know. I've played long enough to watch the player base turn over a couple of times (at least). I don't think there's any homogeneity in PvP in terms of player expectations, but then again, there never has been. THAT'S why you'll never see balancing that satisfies the base.
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7 RepliesI don't think people are using it as a reference for balance. I think they're using it as a reference to what they want all primaries to feel like.
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at least people used primaries. and my red death was able to 2 burst. was a great time.
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2 RepliesWhy wouldn't you use the past as a reference for future improvements ? This is done in just about everything in real life. I'm not sure if I'm just misunderstanding something here or this is just some super shitty logic.
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1 ReplyVanilla destiny- when everything was so OP that everything was reliable except pulse rifles
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Edited by Lord Kielron: 10/18/2016 8:42:05 AMWhile balance wasn't great in year one, personally I feel 2.0 threw most semblances of fun out the window with how the weapons operate. I'll post a bit more of my thoughts later, as I'll have more time then
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16 RepliesTrials and IB are the only light enabled playlists in Crucible. This means that y1 weapons are just as effective in, well, everything else. Sorry, majority (and common sense) wins.
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2 RepliesEdited by SaltyJack591: 10/17/2016 7:37:30 PMI guess when we talk about year 1/2 it was a time when we could actually be powerful. Back when weapons were worth the hunt and worth equipping. No one cared about balance, I myself prefer the chaos of imbalance. This is not an MLG game, it's a scifi loot based shooter. This game will never obtain balance by design. There are far too many weapons for that to ever be realized to satisfy the salty crybabies of the what killed me today crowd. There is no satisfying that community until there are only 5 or 6 guns in the entire game like Halo. And they will probably still complain, they should have left it like it was.
