JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

Forums

3/30/2016 11:14:04 AM
55
Dedicated servers can't fix packet loss. Dedicated servers are crap if you live far from a data centre. P2P [i]theoretically[/i] sorts ping related issues (though SBMM thows a spanner in that works). NOTHING apart from major national infrastructure refurbishments will cure packet loss. Guess what hurts gaming experience most? That's right: [b]PACKET LOSS[/b]. The pressure that you apply shouldn't be on your game developer, but on your telecom provider. You expect developers to make perfect experiences built on broken networks. That is clearly becoming increasingly difficult to do. [u]Gamers must unite against the right enemy[/u], the governments and telecoms companies responsible for building and maintaining the infrastructure, not the innocent devs desperately trying to make something cool work on a shit pile of a network.
English

Posting in language:

 

Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Region and ping locked servers would be a good start.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • region becomes less and less of an issue year on year. I now have better ping to transatlantic ping test servers than friends in areas not served by high speed broadband have to domestic test servers. Servers that are locked by some sort of ping level would be great, but then you run the risk of making it so that people who live on opposite sides of a street can't play with each other because high speed internet hasn't made it across the street yet. Ie, I could play with my New York friends but not my over the road neighbour. Plus it's hard to implement on console because console manufacturers [b]not developers[/b] are the ones that set the rules on what restrictions can be placed on players and the appropriate thresholds for those restrictions. Games like BF4 get around this by having regional servers, but allowing players to connect to those servers from anywhere in the world (leading to times of the day when US servers have a high transpacific population because they are more interesting to play on than "local" servers) So while these seem like "obvious" solutions the actual realities of trying to implement them and the extent of positive effect they could have is different than one would imagine.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Hey sir, you seem highly educated in networking, do have a job under networking or something?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • If I seem highly educated in networking then you are reading me wrong. I'm just a gamer who takes an interested in the issues that affect me. This isn't the first PvP game with an online forum and lag issues that I've taken an active interest in. I'm very much aware that though the best developers make the community feel like the community had a big part in solving the lag, it was the developers who did all the work and mostly the solutions that they found weren't the solutions that the community gestalt was demanding. The gestalt IS powerful though, I'm just trying to steer that power in a more productive direction.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • It seemed like you are, you have great common sense than.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Thank you, people think Dedicated servers will fixed world wide matchmaking and it makes me laugh every time!

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Surely if they wanted they could pay and use a Cdn? No extra infrastructure required

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • CDN's are typically for static content. Not sure what they could even use it for side from scripts and images... And I think their manifest images are already served up this way.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • CDN's like Akamai have been acclerating dynamic content for years

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Streaming video and media, one of the main things they do at Akamai IS providing static content... In a stream. Very different from computing. If Bungie's issue is around something like this, a regionalized CDN would help.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by amandajc808: 4/1/2016 1:46:34 AM
    Yup every Cdn has the ability to store static images and content. Live content too. It's been a few years since I worked for a Cdn but i believe they could Help Destiny beyond static

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • That's still going to suck for little Jimmy out in a small town where the entire population is using the same 2 miles of copper wire between them and the nearest fibre hub. Sure a CDN can accelerate content delivery, but the infrastructure is still the real underlying bottleneck that causes latency. Even in modern western countries with high broadband availability there are still some real cold spots. All it takes is one player from a cold spot in your match, and dedicated server or P2P they are going to ruin everyone's experience.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Yes but if it's not on a p2p connection because they are using a Cdn then if one person has a dodgy Internet connection then surely it would only be that person that is having a bad time, not everyone else?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • That depends entirely on how the lag compensation is worked. Remember that unlike PC, console devs have to ensure that their games are playable within net capability tolerances set by [b]console manufacturers[/b]. They have to take a [b]balanced[/b] approach to lag comp, and that means that they can't make it a totally shit experience for people with potato net that is within console manufacturer tolerances. And so yet again my point comes to the top: Why the hell do people living in first world countries, paying the same first world prices to same providers as each other have to put up with potato net in some areas and high speed networks in others. I expect my internet service provider to use MY money to build a fast reliable network. I don't expect them to only make it fast and reliable in my street, I PAY them to maintain the [b]whole[/b] network so that I can have use of the whole network. And if that means that they need to invest in their rural areas so that I can have use of their network to communicate in a fast and reliable manner with my friends in rural areas then [b]damnit[/b] I have PAID for that work to be carried out. But telecoms companies LOVE to screw extra money out of customers and hold them to ransom, passing on the costs of network expansion to individuals and governments rather than acting as a CAPITALIST enterprise and making those network improvements themselves on the basis that investment now leads to profit later. So we just let them hedge their profits against our willingness to put up with shit services and our governmental willingness to suffer the consequences of slow networks in an age of increasing network saturation. Bear in mind that while this looks like a rural problem NOW, current network infrastructure isn't going to remain static for long and it will be within the decade that we see some new variety of high speed internet become "standard" and a new definition of "high def" become the desired output of our games, and a new definition of potato net become clear. And then we'll ALL be held to ransom until we cough up yet again for network expansion and so the cycle will continue.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Yah but bungie uses the wrong protocols, tcp woukd be best due to packets falling in order Udmp is what they are using and even tho 50 packets were sent you may get packet 50 before you get packet 1 or 22

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by KannibalKlown: 3/30/2016 5:49:13 PM
    Most games use UDP I believe it's because, due to the nature of online gaming that it makes little sense to resend a packet when lost because the data is no longer valid. You might as well just send the NEXT packet with the NEW position/health/status/etc. data instead of caring about re-sending that data from 1.2 seconds ago. When it comes to files, then yes. It's a no-brainer. When it comes to data like this... it makes some sense from a performance standpoint to just use UDP. Since the game doesn't care what was going on 5 seconds ago.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Thanks that's a good explanation

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • What would be the reasoning that justifies using UDMP in preference to TCP?

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Edited by iLLMuzik: 4/1/2016 12:11:04 PM
    👍👌

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • I feel like @Kannibal answered this well above

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Dedicated servers solved the problem for me on COD. At least the latency lag. My ping to speedtest.net is 11ms and my packet loss is 0. Because of my good connection every bullet hits me and my bullets don't hit enemies, because of their packet loss and wrong matchmaking.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Do you understand the concept that dedicated servers are NOT always the best solution for everyone and that just because you have had personal experience of them improving a game does not mean that experience is mirrored by the community in general? Your 11ms ping is to a speedtest server. Is the data centre for CoD in the same location as that server? Do you always connect to the same CoD data centre? Do you live in an urban centre? What is the experience of someone who is in the next furthest small town to you like? How widespread is Fibre To The Premises in the catchment area for your CoD data centre? I'm guessing that you don't know the answers to most of these questions, and so your lack of qualification to be able to diagnose dedicated servers as a cure for the community is illuminated.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Dedicated servers is plural. You can realistically have a server in every geographical area and as many as you want. A small town over? Really? Not going to make a difference. Issues, it doesn't solve someone's internet speeds. Dedicated servers allow for more processing. We as consumers have never valued upload speeds and we're paying for it. It's very important in p2p pvp play. Problems with dedicated servers is that they're essentially fixed where p2p servers grow and match your community size at that time and a area. Gaming time frames have very high peaks of usage at certain hours in the day. Dedicated servers can only hold so many people. Also, you generally see an extreme peak and launch and rapid decline. Now you can rent those servers out or if you're renting (likely) you can allow others to rent in non usage times. A game like Destiny in my eyes has the best opportunity to go to dedicated servers. No, dedicated servers don't completely solve the problem, but everyone can agree they help.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Often people with bad connections are frustratingly close to areas which are served by superfast broadband. Sometimes by as little as crossing the road. It's all well and good you being dismissive of that, but it is reality for many people. I agree that the way to combat the fixed location of dedicated servers is to have more server locations spreading the load but the reality is that data centres are highly specialised facilities which function best massive and centralised rather than small and widespread. Either way you need infrastructure investment. More data centres, better networks, it's all cost and pretty much entirely out of the control of game development teams. Like I keep on saying, we as a group need to pressure the infrastructure people to make a system on which the development can build awesome, not the other way around.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • Think my exact quote was it doesn't fix bad internet connections. I definitely misread your comments about next small town over without the little elaboration. Let me explain why. Why do I not care that they're a hop skip away from good internet, because that literally changes nothing concerning the dedicated server discussion. They have bad internet with and without dedicated servers. Now when I see you're saying concerning infrastructure get it (my bad). As I believe we've agreed on. Dedicated servers are expensive. I'm sure we can agree that it's not easy to guess how many will be playing in a geographical are down the the minute. It's a big financial burden and a tough decision to decide how many dedicated severs where. At the end of the day Bungie needs to make good money. Same thing is true with infrastructure, but you go out to these small towns. They're never ever going to cover your maintenance costs let alone initial wires. Which is extremely expensive. The costs that those rural people would have to pay just for the company to break even would be crazy. You want quality internet I'd suggest not isolating yourself. I say this as someone who literally grew up on the wrong side of the border. Cable wasn't possible and Internet sucked. The edge of our property line was the country. From house to edge of property was 6 yards at most. As a company why expand for one house when the next house is 1 mile plus down? Should tax payers subsidize my internet.

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

You are not allowed to view this content.
;
preload icon
preload icon
preload icon