{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
Edited by RavenousLD3341:
2/15/2016 9:22:22 PM
66
Abusive RNG, and Methods to fix it.
This current RNG system in Destiny is horrible. It's punishing, and abusive to players. It's solely designed to keep players grinding and grinding, repeating the same activity over and over and over. It requires you to go out and manually rope 2-5 of your friends into the game to complete an event to get a chance at your reward. It's pushing players into longer periods of play, and slowly removing exit points.
Think about it....
Raid rewards are lack luster (that's why i didn't bother), the infusion system only adds 80% of the difference in light (.8(B-A)+A=C if B>A), which in turn may require multiple 320 drops, which are extremely rare. During the HoW era, Xur sold Max level gear, nightfall dropped max gear, PoE provided currency to get max level gear, and provided an item to make any item max level. Back then only 7 pieces of gear counted towards your light. And the best gear dropped at 300-331-365 and that's it. All of them, via Etheric light could be 365.
Now 10 pieces of gear count, and drop between 300-320... which means that there are 200 pieces of gear that can drop in the raid, 100 on hard mode. There is also a chance that you get 0 drops on an encounter.... This is just insane. When you factor in that you may need more than one 320 drop.... It gets even crazier.
When you have people searching out a teammate, then spawning into a match against another team, and then both teams are racing to see who can commit suicide the fastest for some loot, you know your system is broken. Then to hopefully get a few good matches out of everyone... you offer one of your highest light level items (320 ghost), just to get people to play right..... you have a serious problem.
I've been playing other games lately checking out some other RNG systems..
An RNG based loot system itself is not abusive or punishing. Let's look at some games that get it right.
[b]Battlefield 4/Battlefield Hardline[/b]
You probably didn't even think about this, battle-packs are RNG based. No one has said a peep, because...... you don't get duplicate items when it comes to thins you need (scopes, attachments etc) you usually only get duplicate XP boosts. That's because you want more than one of those i would imagine. Hard line does a few things different, but still the same jist.
[b]Borderlands/ all entries[/b]
Who can forget borderlands. This was the first FPS I played that really had an RPG feel to it, you build a character, complete with a diablo style loot system. Do you get crapped on? Sometimes... but the game is rewarding. I've never had to spend hours and hours and hours and hours looking for a set of gear to take me to the next level. The items in the environment scaled with me. If i wanted something really powerful, gain a few levels, kill a boss. I was usually likely to find a few replacements to my equipment. Plus this game specializes in "just in time RNG" So if your low on health, 'nades, and shotty ammo, the next few boxes you open up will likely have the things you need in it.
[b]Diablo 3[/b]
Want better loot? Turn the difficulty up a level. Did you get a pretty good weapon, but it's not quite good enough to replace the one you have? Stick a jewel in that thing, or enchant it to add a stat that you can use. Hell, see if the black smith can offer you something appropriate for your character level. I think of Diablo, Champions, Baulders Gate, and games in this category as the RNG loot god standard. It's rewarding in it's own right, consistent enough to not be frustrating or punishing, but the great rewards are just far enough apart to make getting that legendary weapon really feel like a victory.
[b]Final Fantasy XIV[/b]
This is a full blown MMO people. So it's structure is designed to make you [u]WANT[/u] to play. Where this game really gets it's RNG right is that there are very clear paths to the best items in the game. I mean... very clear. If you want the best armor possible, you do the high level activity you have access to. That's it. It doesn't grantee that the item your looking for will appear, but, it is in there, and when you get it it will be at it's highest level. What FFXIV does that's interesting is they don't limit how many runs you can make at an activity, just how much loot you can take from it. For instance.... if your a Tank, and your waiting on the raid boots, just pass on all of the drops until you get them. They didn't drop on that run? Queue up and do it again. There are 2 loot rolls that characters can make. Need or Greed. If it's for your character class you can roll Need, and it automatically beats any Greed roll. This is really nice if you're the only tank in your party. Just roll Need on a tank item, and no one can take it. Greed rolls are for items outside of your class, or just items you don't need. Or you can pass. There are a lot of checks and balances to make sure characters don't roll Need on items they don't actually need. (EDIT:Though i would elaborate on these balances, There is a class of gear you can get from dungeons called Atheral Gear, you can greed it if you want, but you can't sell Atheral gear in the market, so you may not want it cluttering up your inventory, that's just one example)
Here is what I propose for the future of Destiny. We are too far into this mess in Destiny 1 to correct it, so lets look towards Destiny 2.
Regular set up
Common, uncommon, rare, intruducing (light infused), legendary, exotic, and introducing Epic (class specific)
Most things will stay the same, but..
Light Infused (something) gear drops from strikes. These provide a significant benefit to players in PvE activities, and also makes the strikes re-playable. This gear should be appropriate to the level of the activity, [u]but[/u] should be powerful enough to carry you through a few levels, in most MMOs an item like this would almost be powerful enough to get you though the story quests till next strike. I would say a few hours short. So there is an incentive to grind that strike out 5-6 times before moving to the next part of the story. That should also net you the gear you need. (EDIT HERE: Light infused gear should be the only gear that drops in a strike, period)
Raids should not be end game only. Slap a good 6 man activity in the middle of the game. This is where your first Legendary drops should happen, and they should be powerful, very powerful. If you can get the entire armor set from this activity, it should carry you for a while, and the legendary weapons should last quite a while as well, but not as long as the armor.
more story stuff
strike
story
strike
stirke again
(here is a good spot for optional strikes, but make sure they are above the players current ability, this will drive them to become more powerful to tackle this stuff)
story
story
Now go do higher level optional strikes
Raid
Optional very high level raid (you'll want your maxed out epic armor weapon set here)
(insert DLC1 here)
Exotic weapons will remain unique, and will always almost be the most powerful weapons in the game.
Epic weapons/armor will be class specific. (though many may not agree with this)
Primary weapons ( You can choose 1, every type of primary will be offered, I don't want players forced into a play style when it comes to primaries)
Secondary (there are no choices, this is where the design of your chosen class comes into play)
Heavy (same here)
Same with armor.
You'll have to complete many many tasks to bring the weapons to their full potential, it will take a long time. It's supposed to, but these activities should be fun to complete, shouldn't always require teammates, and can be done mostly solo.
With the armor, you'll receive it at the highest level available at the time. Automatically, no BS.
Perhaps once you have everything done..... there may be a way to get the other primaries.... (it'll be a secret)
With each DLC there will be an extension of the Epic weapon/armor quest. These weapons will be more powerful than exotics, always, and forever. These primaries will be elemental, the only ones in the game. Period.
The best loot in the game, needs a clear path. Currently best loot is available in a few events, and you never know which one is going to give you that elusive 320. Plus all of these events don't offer matchmaking, which nearly requires you to spend as much time out of the game looking to people, as you'll spend in the game being disappointed by the abusive loot system.
I know what you're thinking.
Why are you here, just leave, blah blah blah....
I just want this game to be fun again. I'm not playing because I'm not having fun. None of my friends play anymore, because they aren't having fun.
Here's a few videos.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GArkyxP8-n0
Watch them and think....
-
Listen, your post is excellent, but what you call grinding, Bungie calls "engaged players" at their monthly meeting with Activision execs and in turn what Activision execs call "concurrent players" at their shareholders investor meetings. The game design is geared towards achieving the latter's goals and NOT the gamers goals. It's the sad state of corporatised gaming today and Destiny is a symptom of this landscape, not the cause.
-
Bump!
-
1 ReplyThey could solve this whole RNG problem by releasing something that you just apply to a weapon or armor to add X light to that item. The reason they don't do that is because the content is paper thing and people would stop complaining about the drops and see how little is actually in the game. This whole awful RNG is BY DESIGN and it will not get fixed, in this game or the next.
-
Yep Bump
-
BUMP and I'll just leave this here [url]https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/193334820/0/0[/url]
-
1 ReplyThese are great suggestions. I cannot fathom why Bungie didn't design the game like this from the start. I know they did research on MMO's and RPG's during development.
-
1 Reply"Point to the area on this doll where RNGesus abused you."
-
3 RepliesAdditionally, the whole system of light level makes no sense. A gun and a piece of armor should get by on its own merits. Not only that, but you should never receive a ~260 piece of gear as a 300+ guardian when completing any major game content (strike, raid, trials, etc.). Not only that, but drops should *heavily* favor gear that you don't already have. I'm sick of grinding through something only to get the same gun/armor I'm already wearing, but at a lower light level than what I have.
-
Edited by iDovahBear: 2/22/2016 10:32:49 PMThis is one of those few posts that goes on for way longer than even I usually rant (lies, I probably just fluff it more,) so I can't read this whole thing. But, I can definitely agree with the point you're trying to make. Destiny is trying to slow down the pace of rewards to make us play longer. But the longer we go without a meaningful reward, the less we want to play. They need to realize that showering people with meaningful rewards isn't what we're asking. We just don't like feeling screwed every time we're trying to get a new Exotic when they first get unlocked. People have complained about RNG since day one. Hopefully it ends by Destiny 2. Otherwise it's PEACEOUTKTHXBAI...
-
2 RepliesEdited by Orrion: 2/17/2016 3:43:38 PMGood lord I wish people would stop listing Diablo 3 as an example of good RNG. [quote]Diablo 3 Want better loot? Turn the difficulty up a level. Did you get a pretty good weapon, but it's not quite good enough to replace the one you have? Stick a jewel in that thing, or enchant it to add a stat that you can use. Hell, see if the black smith can offer you something appropriate for your character level. I think of Diablo, Champions, Baulders Gate, and games in this category as the RNG loot god standard. It's rewarding in it's own right, consistent enough to not be frustrating or punishing, but the great rewards are just far enough apart to make getting that legendary weapon really feel like a victory.[/quote] First off, you don't get *better* loot for turning up the difficulty, unless you're going from Master to Torment I (sets) and everyone can get to Torment I with little effort. You get *more* loot for turning up the difficulty, but we don't know the percentages. Getting more loot is a good thing, but at the same time most of the loot you get is worthless except to turn into crafting mats. Which is fine, except when you realize you need 50 of those mats for 1 shot at crafting and each legendary is only 1 mat. Tip of the iceberg, too.. Everyone sticks an emerald in their weapon, and everyone enchants it. Those aren't things you do to make a weapon better than what you had. Those are things you do to EVERY WEAPON. Your summary here has the hallmarks of having not played in a long time, or not playing enough to run into the various issues of gearing and RNG - just like you won't care about or run into Destiny's problems if you're a pretty casual player.
-
3 RepliesIf they made etheric light relevant, there would be plenty incentive to play all the raids including PoE! It actually be worth keeping old gear. Imagine that
-
9 RepliesThere needs to be different rewards based on light level and score If I get first place and I have the highest light I want to get the better gear Last place people shouldn't get the best gear As someone who was last place on everything it feels bad to get a legendary whole the first place player gets a strange coin There also needs to be increased drops for the number of resurrections, orbs created and objectives played
-
3 RepliesThe other thing about the Battlefield series is RNG is not the only path, it is in parallel with a progression based path. Therefore, even if you get terrible rolls (welcome to my world) on the battle pack (RNG side), you still have the progression based path to earn the leveling rewards. The battle packs only serve to provide a possible acceleration to elements of the progression. (Reference to Battlefield 4, didn't get Hardline)
-
1 ReplyThis needs to be broadcasted on every medium out there. This is abusive to artificially extend the "playability" if the game by leaving the most dedicated players for time invested in total limbo. There is another massive lurking problem with this design and that is players have BULL CRAP ANTENNAE and can pick up this kind of manipulation in the long run. In the long run players who know the quantity of grinding required to play at the endgame level just won't put up with it before very long. I'm at the point of apathy towards progression and this is scary for bungie coming from a fan who has played constantly since the beta. I'm seriously asking myself if I would grind again knowing how much i had to put in to get what I have and the answer isn't good for Bungie The Scrooge miser approach will be a downfall item for them over the course of the year as this keeps up and from history shown will increase even more.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmQyAR4EYJU
-
Edited by PandaPapa146: 2/17/2016 2:08:44 AMGood post! Edited to add: The biggest thing that grinds my gears is engrams that drop items at 260 / 270 / 280 level, when my W/H/T are >300+ This is such a simple fix...to not do it, is deliberate! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!
-
-
2 RepliesAgreed and bumped, but I have a few comments regarding the RNG. The RNG would not be so disheartening if it wasn't for the fact that you CANNOT PROGRESS further after you reach level 40 unless you are blessed by the RNG. Once you hit 310, there is literally only two things you can do to progress at that point: 1) Participate in endgame pvp/events and sacrifice your first born son to RNGesus and hope that he blesses you with a 320 item (one that you need) or 2) do the challenge mode in the hard raid for guaranteed 320 items. The hard raid in and of itself is so unrewarding and disheartening, that it is not even worth doing to completion. Just do it for the hard mode challenge that week, and that it is. The current state of the game would not be so bad, HOWEVER, if your light level progression was the result of the amount of time and effort you put into this game rather than a matter of RNG luck. EVEN IF getting nothing was still on the table, it would not be such a bad thing. I still remember playing Diablo 2 and doing Mephisto/Baal runs with my MF (magic find) Sorc (Nicknamed "One Tuff MFer") and on occasion, I would get nothing but a rare drop and some gold. Not all the time, but it happens. Back then, boss farming was how you got great loot, and you accepted that doing a loot run would occasionally give you nothing. But hey, you still got the experience towards your next level! In Destiny, leveling is an all or nothing prospect. You can complete the raid over and over; you can spend 100's of hours in there and you still may not progress your light level at all. In fact, once you reach a certain light level, the drop percentages are so low and work against you so much that it would literally take you 1000's of runs just to acquire the last remaining item you need AT the appropriate light level. But you are only allowed 3 runs a week, assuming you have 3 characters. And if you got nothing, you just wasted several hours of your life with nothing to show for it but further loot frustration. Challenge mode was meant to buffer this and tone this down some, but instead, it has pretty much wrecked the value of the raid. And you still need RNGesus to grant you the right items at the appropriate light levels. Now imagine if you were earning experience through those raid runs. Experience that allowed you to continue progressing, even if you didn't get the loot you wanted. EVEN IF you got nothing, the run would still be worth it right? THIS is exactly what needs to change in Destiny. We need to be allowed to progress regardless of drop rates. Infusion has its good points, but the way it functions, combined with the punishing RNG result in a game that just isn't fun or rewarding to play anymore. Destiny essentially has become a loot-based shooter without any loot! So rather than scrap the whole light level system, we need an infusion system that provides us a 1:1 ratio on the light gained per item infused into your gear. I think motes of light fit the bill and it could remain in place now and FAR into the future. Put 1 mote in 1 piece of gear to increase light level on that gear by +1. What could be more simple?! It fits the lore. The fact that we gain motes of light after each post-40 level up ensures we can continue to progress so long as we're doing something outside of the tower. Bounties become meaningful as they grant you large chunks of exp AND occasionally award motes of light. Events suddenly become worth playing, as you can earn motes as prizes. Past content becomes instantly relevant with only this tiny adjustment, as past content can be farmed for upgrade materials that can be swapped for motes. Faction, vanguard, and crucible rep become all the more important as each rank up gives you 4 motes of light. And the return of the Y1 nightfall exp buff would make doing the nightfall a must, even if it has really crappy loot tables! While motes can be earned several ways, they will not be too numerous as we can still consume them to instantly upgrade gear. And mote of light infusion will encourage weapon diversity rather than limit it like the current infusion system does. Currently, people do not have enough 320 drops to have multiple sets of gear and multiple weapons at max light level. This limits diversity, as most people will just opt to use their best gear, rather than the best gear for a specific activity (plainly speaking, people don't have a separate set of gear for PVP and PVE like they did in Y1). This limits weapon diversity and weapon choice, as people will not take chances on even a promising item, because they will not have the resources to increase the power of both items. That is why so many people are running around with vendor-purchased Hung Jury's. They're a good weapon and its a safe pick to invest your limited resources into. The fair availability of motes of light will make it feasible for people to not only have multiple sets of gear at max light level, but they will also have multiple guns at max light level, which would increase weapon diversity. And the beauty is that it does not matter if the item drops at light level 220 or light level 319, you can still realistically max it out! IMO, this system would put the fun back into the game without even touching the RNG system. It will make the rest of the game relevant again in spite of the fact that the challenge level has not been raised. It allows players to pursue whatever activities they like rather than forcing players to play things that they may not want to play, just to have the chance of obtaining a 320 item. THIS is the kind of change Destiny needs.
-
I couldn't agree to this anymore than I have. Genuinly curious as to why people have disliked it, do they prefer the way it is now? Where there are practically multiple layers of RNG to contend with. (Item, Light level, Perks.) o.O In the end, it just makes it feel less fun and more like a chore in a way.
-
1 ReplyI've been grinding Taniks for god knows how long just to get a cape. A Cape. That's it. Why does it feel like I'm fighting this game instead of playing it?
-
-
Clicked agree right after the first sentence.
-
Wow, very well written! Need more feedback like this posted. My only questions are, what are we progressing and what keeps us coming back to the game and its activities? If we're really progressing gear, then that gives us a reason b/c it would feel more rewarding because you were able to finally infuse that DIS-43 to LL320 because you like it at times, but you've already infused your MIDA to 320 because it's your main go to weapon. That's a question that some have to ask themselves, am I trying to get to 320 overall or am I trying to get to 320 with my favorite gear equipped. That is actually my approach to this game, so it doesn't bother me as much to repeatedly grind, because I do have a method or system I guess. I'm not defending the game and the loot system because it does really need improving, but in order for my to play like I do, I had to do something that makes me wanna come back outside of just enjoying playing this game. Lastly, the first video did nail it about grinding rewards to cover up design flaws!! I only hope Bungie has really learned from Vanilla and TTK and apply it to the sequel. If they don't, a lot will be quiet and simply move on b/c the rants and frustrations have already been expressed.
-
Edited by --KNIGHT--: 2/16/2016 10:20:53 PMThank you for saying this. The rng has made this game purely shit. I will quote this post again for a bump
-
Look in all fairness I can say the grind from 312-320 is pretty rough. But after 310... Well you're really done. There isn't much need to be a higher light unless you want an easier time raiding... Which is what you would grind to be a higher light. If you think about it as "I need this item, I need to be a higher light" you're playing this game wrong. It's a social hub that keeps you coming back for the small rewards at end game. A gun with a perfect roll, that 320 helmet, getting to the lighthouse. All those things wouldn't feel as great as they do when they happen if it were easier. RNG isn't a problem, your mentality is.
-
2 RepliesEdited by Louise Belcher: 2/16/2016 6:40:20 PMagree. the problem i saw with destiny early on is that a purely RNG based loot system worked for Diablo1 and Diablo2 because they had a virtually infinite loot pool. however, in Diablo3, they shrunk the loot table with the addition of class sets, so they had to compensate with a "smarter" loot system than just strict rng. destiny screwed the proverbial pooch by adding more layers of rng to the existing rng and even adding a null value option: the possibility of getting absolutely nothing as a random loot roll versus just getting something that you do not necessarily need or want. most players can accept getting a crappy item, but getting nothing is a hard pill for even seasoned gamers to swallow. that coupled with the swarms and swarms of worthless low level items with which we are bombarded creates a rather adversarial experience with the game. those moments should be tempered by the select few end-game activities that we can complete each week, but by artificially increasing the loot pool with more worthless garbage (e.g. 310 ghosts on nightfall), they rendered those activities worthless. at this point, min-maxers consider the only worthwhile end-game activity to be challenge modes. the only one that has the possibility of dropping 320 armor pieces is gorgoroth. so then we would login once every three weeks to kill gorgy for progression and render the rest of our time in game as completely stagnant? i don't think so. i said to hell with it and stopped logging on instead. the biggest problem i see is that they do not have any quality assurance testers who would have discovered these flaws early on in the development cycle. how hard is it to hire a few poop-sockers to mindlessly powergame through the content and beat everything then share their experience with how time-gated and poorly planned gear progression really is in destiny. we all know that deej doesn't play. cozmo claims to, but if he pushed end-game progression at all, he would be knee deep in the dev team's ass pushing for answers and letting us know that there is still a semblance of hope left for this ip before luke smith and wisniewski squeeze the last drop of blood from its rotting corpse. i think the problems with bungie are systemic and show a significant amount of cognitive dissonance between what they think is best for their wallet, what they think we need, and how ignorant they think we are. the only way destiny 2 will succeed, is if the change comes from the top down and they decide to give the fans WHAT WE WANT versus what they think we need and what will give them the quickest return. if we consider how well the public has embraced the new Deadpool movie, it shows that when you give the people what we want, we respond with our wallets. blizzard has done an amazing job at forecasting the wants and needs of their playerbase for years and they have become the gold standard by which other games are judged. it amazes me how awful some of luke smiths' decisions have been considering the fact that he was a scarab lord (the ONE on his server who opened the gates of ahn quiraj). clearly he was a h/c raider through molten core and bwl to have been in the #1 guild on his server to have that distinction. clearly he isn't stupid about end-game mechanics and progression. clearly he should grok that some of us console scrubs came from the pc side and know much more than he gives us credit for knowing. they need a wakeup call. i have zero trust in their management team and zero faith in anything that they do moving forward. they took a wonderful ip in destiny and bled it dry and burned it into the ground. destiny 2 might be beautiful and might play like a dream, but those knuckle-blam!-s will break that too unless their new CEO manages to remove their collective heads from their collective asses. perhaps activision's financial problems from missing goals this quarter will spur a major shift in their thinking. i guess we can hope. i used to love this game. i guess i hold out for the chance that they will wake up and give us what we want before it is too late.
