@Demigod257 So first let me apologize for not replying in a timely manner. I'm sure you are aware what weekend it is, and their was preparation to be done. Second, I laughed a little when I saw your post notification on my phone because it said, "I will happily explain about Thor" which had me quite confused. Third, thank you for keeping the post respectful, an odd thing to happen now a days. That being said, I have problems with your argument, which I will happily explain. [quote]Let's start by saying Thorn got a large amount of buffs pre-House of Wolves (which you could still look up). Secondly, at the same time or just prior the other PvP monsters were nerfed to the ground, the Auto Rifles and Fusion Rifles. Thus when House of Wolves began the PvP meta had already been the Reign of Hand Cannons. Because of gun types and map designs, Hand Cannons were the optimal weapon. There range was the largest of the issue, but all three had further problems: The Last Word was glitched and was THE best gun of pre-Taken King. Hawkmoon (which I personally deemed as the most skillless gun) could OHKO someone with a headshot, but in all cases could outrange a sniper. Thorn, finally, caused for a large number of "trades" or disengagements, as well as letting skilled players kill others with 2 headshots, unskilled players 3 body shots.[/quote] I don't disagree that Thorn got several buffs prior to the HoW era, but I mainly refer to the HoW era because that is when Thorn got popular, and it really came into its prime. Now referring to the ending, you mainly mention that Thorn resulted in a lot of trades, which I disagree with. Thorn at the time (a long with every handcannon) had near perfect accuracy, great range, a generous hitbox, and overall great stats. This led to players being able to two tap someone in the head with ease. While trading was a possibility, I found that Thorn was in general king. While the Last Word was amazing, it was somewhat limited in its range, more so than Thorn ever was. As for Hawkmoon, I am an xbox player, and was not their for its former glory. [quote]I cut out the greater part of this section to bring it up later, but I am happy you mentioned the First Curse. The weapon is a 2HKO with headshots on targets with low armor. In all other occassions it is a 3HKO. This is fine being a high skill, high impact HC. I think what you are arguing is understandable, but let's not forget that Thorn is only (now) a 3HKO because of Mark of the Devourer and that is again only with headshots, putting not unlike the other exotic Hand Cannons. First Curse (and Ace of Spades) are meant to reward the skilled hand, while the older exotic hand cannons each have perks to lessen the strain of gunfights.[/quote] So as an avid First Curse fan I have to mention a few things. 1, in my many hours of using the first curse, I have never gotten a three shot body shot kill. Frankly I don't believe its possible. The only 3 shot kill possibility is with at least one head shot. As for 2 shot headshot, that is only with a target who runs absolutely no armor, which is not often in the slightest. Thorn however, is a three shot body shot. Unless perhaps a ram warlock with absolute max armor? You also have to keep in mind that first curse is a slow firing weapon, unlike the the Thorn which has one of the fastest fire rates, and still be three shot body shot. [quote]One of the few exotic perks that make an exotic weapon Exotic. While I initially disapproved of a 50% nerf to Mark of the Devourer, I believe that such a change now would be preferred. The damage over time is a great perk, stronger in Y1, but not as bad in Y2 (May get into why later). The burn proc is meant to have opponents disengage. Armor and Recovery are far stronger in Y2, plus Mark of Devourer is no different than other DoT applying abilities in the game. Complaining about having a DoT on a gun, but allowing any sort of health regen on a gun seems rather in poor taste. I will say that I don't fully agree on how the perk works now. In Y1 the DoT dealt consistent damage; in Y2 the damage is multiplied continuously, even if it still only takes 3/4 shots to kill.[/quote] To paraphrase Jon W. one of the lead developers for PVP, exotic weapons are not meant to be flat out better, just different. Mida is a great example of this, the speed boost is one of its greatest strengths. However it still takes 4 head shots to kill. Thorn is flat out better than other hand cannons. While the burn proc is an interesting feat, I don't believe that DoT has any place in PVP. As for regeneration, that only procs on a kill, and can be stopped at any moment the player takes damage. Thorn doesn't have that counter. Its hard to argue this, because I would rather that Thorn applies the keen scout debuff to a target. Allowing it to track them through the wall (a very advantageous perk to have) than flat out do more damage shot per shot than any other handcannon in the game. [quote]I hope I made some arguments clear before, but I'll wrap up my thoughts. Y2 Thorn (in practice, not in physical weaponry) is a rather balanced weapon and Hand Cannon for the current meta which is overcome by TLW, Mida, and Doctraine. With the overall HC changes, Thorn no longer has the range to compete with Scout Rifles (and using Send It is detrimental to the weapon since it lowers it's magazine size). Granting the weapon a consistent damaging DoT (albeit less damaging than Y1) will not make it so overwhelming to fight against, but with such powerful primary rivals this is a non-issue. In a meta in which the weapons are all nearly perfect balanced (sorry high impact, low RoF Auto & Pulse Rifles, as well as low impact, high RoF Scout Rifles), I think what you may be more afraid of is the community's feeling of NEEDING to use Thorn as a Hand Cannon primary, without even considering using another.[/quote] Thorn has its own range that it dominates in. While other weapons can beat it, its mark of the devourer is still incredibly strong. Other weapons simply can not compete with Thorn in the mid range game. Not saying people using the Thorn are invincible, but the odds are definitely in their favor. As for the community feeling the need to use Thorn, I'd say that the only reason we didn't see more Thorns during crimson doubles is because of the pure bile for the gun in general. [quote]Just my thoughts. If competitive tournaments came out right now, along with Y2 Thorn I would honestly say I would only use the weapon if I were choosing to use a certain playstyle of mine.[/quote] I'm glad that is the way you feel, but there is two things. One you have already admitted to being an avid thorn user, which means you do find it more advantageous to use than other guns. Secondly, there was a rather large tournament that came out around a month ago where the most used weapon was Thorn. Simply put, many high end players felt the need to use the best possible weapon, and that weapon was thorn.