I will happily try to explain why, as an avid Thorn user, I never thought it was OP. (Granted I am typing and walking to work so if I'm not clear just tell me) [quote] Now for those of you who don't remember vanilla thorn, it was rather mediocre. Decent damage, decent fire rate, but a reload that took so long I would watch Netflix episodes between reloads.[/quote] Oh gods I remember this. I got Thorn early October 2014 and the abysmal reload gave me enough time to make a sandwich. [quote]Now entering into the HoW era, Thorn was Op. It was a two shot head shot that sent shivers down people's spine. And it was nerfed into what we had now. The problem with it, is that it is intrinsically better than any other hand cannon.[/quote] Let's start by saying Thorn got a large amount of buffs pre-House of Wolves (which you could still look up). Secondly, at the same time or just prior the other PvP monsters were nerfed to the ground, the Auto Rifles and Fusion Rifles. Thus when House of Wolves began the PvP meta had already been the Reign of Hand Cannons. Because of gun types and map designs, Hand Cannons were the optimal weapon. There range was the largest of the issue, but all three had further problems: The Last Word was glitched and was [b]THE[/b] best gun of pre-Taken King. Hawkmoon (which I personally deemed as the most skillless gun) could OHKO someone with a headshot, but in all cases could outrange a sniper. Thorn, finally, caused for a large number of "trades" or disengagements, as well as letting skilled players kill others with 2 headshots, unskilled players 3 body shots. [quote]Now you have probably heard or know that it is a three shot body shot. Which you might argue is not OP. Let's factor this in, right now the first curse, one of the highest impact weapons is a four shot body shot. Now can be brought down to 3 shot kill, but only with one head shot. The first curse also has a slow fire rate. Right now, there is no point in using another handcannon than thorn.[/quote] I cut out the greater part of this section to bring it up later, but I am happy you mentioned the First Curse. The weapon is a 2HKO with headshots [i]on targets with low armor[/i]. In all other occassions it is a 3HKO. This is fine being a high skill, high impact HC. I think what you are arguing is understandable, but let's not forget that Thorn is only (now) a 3HKO because of Mark of the Devourer and that is again only with headshots, putting not unlike the other exotic Hand Cannons. First Curse (and Ace of Spades) are meant to reward the skilled hand, while the older exotic hand cannons each have perks to lessen the strain of gunfights. [quote]The burn is also a problem. Because it procs on a hit you can casually hit one player with it, and keep him from regenerating their shields for several seconds while you make a tactical push on them.[/quote] One of the few exotic perks that make an exotic weapon [b]Exotic[/b]. While I initially disapproved of a 50% nerf to Mark of the Devourer, I believe that such a change now would be preferred. The damage over time is a great perk, stronger in Y1, but not as bad in Y2 (May get into why later). The burn proc is meant to have opponents disengage. Armor and Recovery are far stronger in Y2, plus Mark of Devourer is no different than other DoT applying abilities in the game. Complaining about having a DoT on a gun, but allowing any sort of health regen on a gun seems rather in poor taste. I will say that I don't fully agree on how the perk works now. In Y1 the DoT dealt consistent damage; in Y2 the damage is multiplied continuously, even if it still only takes 3/4 shots to kill. [quote]So let me ask you something, purely from a numbers standpoint. If you had one destiny life, and you were given the choice between the handcannons we have now. Can you honestly say that you wouldn't pick thorn as your best chance to survive? The only gun capable of three shot body shot, keep an enemy shields down for several seconds, with a good firerate? If you can honestly say no, and think it is not Op, please explain. Because honestly this is so cut and dry for me.[/quote] I hope I made some arguments clear before, but I'll wrap up my thoughts. Y2 Thorn (in practice, not in physical weaponry) is a rather balanced weapon and Hand Cannon for the current meta which is overcome by TLW, Mida, and Doctraine. With the overall HC changes, Thorn no longer has the range to compete with Scout Rifles (and using Send It is detrimental to the weapon since it lowers it's magazine size). Granting the weapon a consistent damaging DoT (albeit less damaging than Y1) will not make it so overwhelming to fight against, but with such powerful primary rivals this is a non-issue. In a meta in which the weapons are all nearly perfect balanced (sorry high impact, low RoF Auto & Pulse Rifles, as well as low impact, high RoF Scout Rifles), I think what you may be more afraid of is the community's feeling of [b]NEEDING[/b] to use Thorn as a Hand Cannon primary, without even considering using another. Thorn does has many perks to being used: decent stats (similar to Ace of Spades) and Mark of the Devourer, which applies a DoT and leave behind a form of hit tracking. [b]Much of the current PvP meta, however, is based on a player's playstyle.[/b] I think if a Y2 Thorn (the weaponry now) were to get released, people would take a second to realize they can't just replace this in the TLW/Sniper or Mida/Shotgun playstyle. While I do believe Thorn is best coupled with a Sniper, Thorn best playstyle (in my opinion) would show itself in an aggressive Thorn/Subclass Ability playstyle. Just my thoughts. If competitive tournaments came out right now, along with Y2 Thorn I would honestly say I would only use the weapon if I were choosing to use a certain playstyle of mine. [b]Example (and I only have HCs on my Hunter):[/b] Bladedancer/Nighstalker- First Curse/Iron Wreath Nightstalker/Gunslinger - Ace of Spades/Stillpiercer Nightstalker/Gunslinger - Thorn/Knives or Smoke/insert special weapon here