[quote]I don't disagree that Thorn got several buffs prior to the HoW era, but I mainly refer to the HoW era because that is when Thorn got popular, and it really came into its prime. Now referring to the ending, you mainly mention that Thorn resulted in a lot of trades, which I disagree with. Thorn at the time (a long with every handcannon) had near perfect accuracy, great range, a generous hitbox, and overall great stats. This led to players being able to two tap someone in the head with ease. While trading was a possibility, I found that Thorn was in general king. While the Last Word was amazing, it was somewhat limited in its range, more so than Thorn ever was. As for Hawkmoon, I am an xbox player, and was not their for its former glory.[/quote] House of Wolves Era - Thorn was great. I'd be a liar and you'd be in your right to call me shit if I denied this. Personally, I never used Send It because-I think you'll partly agree-hand cannons as a whole had great range. I instead used Perfect Balance to maintain my consistency. Trading/Post Mortems did happen more at closer ranges (I should have specified) and at range it had to contend with Hawkmoon. You not having scene Hawkmoon til after its nerf, Hawkmoon did have the most range and accuracy of all the Exotic HCs. What it lacked in consistency (Thorn) or time to kill (TLW), it made it being the "sniper" among HCs with OHKO possibilities. I also don't think TLW was hindered by its limited range when all HCs were far ranging and TLW was glitched. TLW > Thorn > Hawkmoon was how I saw reign. [quote] So as an avid First Curse fan I have to mention a few things. 1, in my many hours of using the first curse, I have never gotten a three shot body shot kill. Frankly I don't believe its possible. The only 3 shot kill possibility is with at least one head shot. As for 2 shot headshot, that is only with a target who runs absolutely no armor, which is not often in the slightest. Thorn however, is a three shot body shot. Unless perhaps a ram warlock with absolute max armor? You also have to keep in mind that first curse is a slow firing weapon, unlike the the Thorn which has one of the fastest fire rates, and still be three shot body shot.[/quote] Again I should've specified how I see and use First Curse, but you know the "calcs" so we can gloss this. In short, Armor is indeed a bigger deal now than in previous PvP metas. Low armor - less bullets to kill. Thorn is only a 3 shot because of its DoT, in a similar fashion as to why TLW and Hawkmoon can have shorter than normal ttk because perks and such. Should exotics be wholly better? I believe this is your next topic. [quote] To paraphrase Jon W. one of the lead developers for PVP, exotic weapons are not meant to be flat out better, just different. Mida is a great example of this, the speed boost is one of its greatest strengths. However it still takes 4 head shots to kill. Thorn is flat out better than other hand cannons. While the burn proc is an interesting feat, I don't believe that DoT has any place in PVP. As for regeneration, that only procs on a kill, and can be stopped at any moment the player takes damage. Thorn doesn't have that counter. Its hard to argue this, because I would rather that Thorn applies the keen scout debuff to a target. Allowing it to track them through the wall (a very advantageous perk to have) than flat out do more damage shot per shot than any other handcannon in the game.[/quote] If I recall, Jon W. also made the point of saying how interesting he found confrontations with Thorn (in theory) because of the DoT. While it made the user very aggressive, it also forced the target to disengage, reevaluate their strategy, and then reengage. Looking at it [i]now[/i], I think the reason this style didn't come into being was because the Thorn DoT was too potent in power. I don't particularly think they fixed this as it stacks now and I've grown to enjoy the idea of Mark of the Devourer procing only on headshots and leaving it at the base damage [i]consistently[/i] throughout its duration. But I think the DoT was always a good thing for the simple reason that it made an exotic gun [b]exotic[/b] and frankly speaking, the DoT makes the gun viable. That might sound like a cop out but look at something like Ace of Spades (similar stats). I love to use the gun in PvP and it comes with great perks for the Crucible. Now I am not saying Keen Scout is a bad perk (I use it on my Nightstalker why wouldn't I?), but Thorn already lets you track, it's a shadowperk just like how Gjallahorns has Grenades n Horseshoes. [quote]Thorn has its own range that it dominates in. While other weapons can beat it, its mark of the devourer is still incredibly strong. Other weapons simply can not compete with Thorn in the mid range game. Not saying people using the Thorn are invincible, but the odds are definitely in their favor. As for the community feeling the need to use Thorn, I'd say that the only reason we didn't see more Thorns during crimson doubles is because of the pure bile for the gun in general.[/quote] Part 1: I don't think you meant "range" there (at least not the literal stat), but it is simply amongst the tier of best weapons. When you look at primaries for Crucible you have to realize that exotics [b]rule half[/b] the Crucible. What do I mean? Well look at the HC guntype and tell me what legendaries can compete besides Eyasluna and the Omolon Kumakutok, both of which need good perks for use. If you look at the top guns for each guntype I am confident this is what you see: HC - TLW / Thorn; Scout - Mida / Tlaloc / Colovence; Auto - Doctraine; Pulse - Grasp / Bad JuJu. Of course, this theory is just based on trials/competitive/"sweaties", but you see what I trying to show correct? [quote]I'm glad that is the way you feel, but there is two things. One you have already admitted to being an avid thorn user, which means you do find it more advantageous to use than other guns. Secondly, there was a rather large tournament that came out around a month ago where the most used weapon was Thorn. Simply put, many high end players felt the need to use the best possible weapon, and that weapon was thorn.[/quote] Part 2: I don't use Thorn now. In fact, I tried it once after the recent HC changes and put it back. Of course in Y1 I used it a lot (and some godroll Ill Will) and I used it for the several reasons, not the least of which was it was a good gun. I do think the problem is that that recent tournament and the current "sweaty" community is forced to play in a game mode that allows Thorn and other things to return. Yet, I still don't believe Thorn, if received a Y2, would be the Α and Ω as it might've been before. The meta has changed and, as you said, there was a "pure bile of guns" to use in Crimson Days, and realistically in the entire Crucible. I firmly believe that what trumps guns in this meta is playstyle. If someone feels the need to use Thorn, then that shows more a bearing on them in Y2. Y1 you need Thorn or TLW to compete. Not so in Y2. Is it hard to check/counter? Yes. But getting killed continuously and repeatedly by Thorn and blaming the weapon, is the same as getting killed by shotguns repeatedly and saying "shotgun noob". I will end with this: if Thorn got a Y2, I would firmly hope that Bungie changes Mark of the Devourer to proc [b]only on headshots[/b] and to have a [b]consistent base damage during its duration[/b]. If the potency stacks, running into a team of Thorn in trials will be much worse now than in Y1

I'll respond when I can. Happy to see someone I can have a nice debate with though

Nothing you said there I didn't already state above, with the exception of low armor builds (which most people shouldn't use). Again, I think a lot of the Meta has to deal with personal playstyles. If you have a good playstyle using Thorn (or something similar like Ace of Spades) then you will of course use Thorn. But Thorn has never been and is not the alpha and omega. Oh the HCs Thorn will be second to TLW and just ahead of First Curse for competitive usage, but I think it'll be barely 5th of top 5 primaries when there is TLW, Mida, Doctraine, Grasp, Bad JuJu, etc etc