So it's the State's job to openly rearrange wealth based on somebody else's notion of fairness? Screw that. I'm born with inalienable rights, and I'm independent of my fellow man. Let me handle my own affairs.

I'm guessing you're a white male, and I'm guessing you wouldn't agree But dude even if you taxed a $10 million at 72%, they'd still walk away with upwards of 2 million a year income. That's more than a lot of people make before taxes. I'd say that's fair.

It is a government's job to provide for it's citizens security and to create an environment that affords them the opportunity to support themselves and to contribute to society as a whole. Given the current inherent inequalities in our society, that means that some people will need more help than others. I do not support the idea of socialism, but at the same time don't see the problem with wanting to help those less fortunate than yourself.

[quote]help those less fortunate than yourself[/quote] Yes, I too get [i]such[/i] a fuzzy feeling by voting for a guy that will force my fellow citizens to give up more of their money whether they like it or not. What a way to help.

Right? It is the individual's job to be charitable, not the government's. It is fundamentally immoral to take another person's money and say "we can use it better than you". It implies superiority over another and that inherently makes someone unequal.

Morality doesn't exist in nature. It is created by man, just like any government or policy. You may think it is an individual's job to be charitable, but sadly, not everyone thinks like that. It is also a false to say that wealth redistribution is immoral. It may be immoral to you, but there are no fundamental guidelines for the morality carved into the earth.

It IS immoral in a society based on individualism. Who cares if other people don't think that way. Who are you to make them pay if they don't want to? Equal is not synonymous with "fair".

I agree that equal is not the same as fair, but equal opportunity doesn't exist in the first place. So you are saying that if I don't want to pay my taxes, the government shouldn't be able to make me? What kind of crap is that?

I don't care about taxes but when you encroach on 50% of someone's produce then that is absurd. We are already over 50% in the US when you take State Taxes social security, healthcare, and federal taxes. Read the articles. They are short

It only seems absurd because you reveal the statistic in a way that evokes a specific emotion. By saying 50%, you focus not on what is left, but the part of the whole. I'll use my sister's friend as an example. He used to make $2 million per year. If I say that 50% of his income is taken up by the government, but I withhold the amount he makes, it seems that a ridiculous amount is being lost to government intervention. When I bring in the fact that he is still making $1 million after the (let's use the word tax to make things easier) tax, it seems that he still has a lot of money. The government could be taxing 99%, but a billionaire will still be filthy rich. The thing is that after a certain point, all of your earnings either go to savings, investment, or luxury consumption, and wealthy people do consume a lot of luxury goods. Savings is, for the most part, irrelevant in this argument because a person making $1 billion will still be able to keep a decent amount in savings. If you were to have taxes that are even close to those above for the lower and middle classes, they would be fighting to survive. There are now two problems that I must address now; let's start with number one. I don't deny that many rich people do work hard to get where they are, but the amount of money they are earning usually doesn't match the amount of work they do. A blue collar worker that puts in physical effort may barely be in the middle class, but a business owner who put in mental effort can skyrocket into the upper class. The business owner did work hard, no doubt, but does he continue to work just as hard every single day to make the millions he currently does? Does he still put in the same effort? A single mother working two jobs to feed the kids is putting in a ton of effort, but sadly, she isn't getting as far as a person who has the capabilities to go get a higher education and start her own business. The second problem I must address is that the 50% tax rate may be put into effect, but people find ways to evade paying. Do you really think that the upper class pays taxes without cutting corners?

Everyone may not be starting at the same level economically, but everyone is equal in ability and the ability to develop a business if they want to and can execute their plan. Equality isn't about economic starting points. Kudos for their previous generations contributions that even allows someone to get a "head start."

Everyone is not equal in ability. Are we all the same when we are born? No. Some may be inherently better due to education or wealth (they are usually related). Do you realize that people are born into families that cannot give them a good education? How can that person create a company when they don't have the knowledge? Is it their fault that they were unlucky when they were born? Financial standing is tied in with ability. Just because you started out fine doesn't mean everyone else did.

Public libraries and public schools have everything in them you need to succeed. If you are born stupid then thats your problem not mine. You can rise out of poverty, it happens all the time when people stop complaining and whining about their situation. Here are some good readings for you: https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2012-spring/individualism-collectivism/ https://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2009-fall/creed-of-sacrifice-vs-land-of-liberty/

Born stupid? If you honestly have no compassion for people who are born with mental health problems, then I don't know why I'm talking to you. People become who they are partially because of their nature (genetics and situation surrounding their birth) and partially because of their nurture. If one generation makes a bad mistake, the children in the next generation will take the bullet when they did nothing wrong. Yes, you may be able to get out of poverty, but the situation surrounding the person in question may prevent it. Your argument assumes that all education is equal, but it isn't. Hell, I've seen some terrible public schools that can't teach anything to the students. Those kids aren't going to know how to start a business; they don't even know the value of hard work. I don't have sympathy for people who whine and do nothing to help themselves, but I do care for people who are actively trying to help themselves, but their initial position prevents progression. I don't think Sanders is entirely realistic in his goals, but I do think that universal healthcare and higher level education would help set each generation on equal footing. Everything past that is up to the individual's discretion. If someone screws up their life, it is their own fault (most of the time), but the government should try to help (not through handouts, but an example for drug addiction is rehab - Clinton had a good solution for that if you saw the Democratic debate), while the children of said person should not face the consequences of the person's terrible life decisions. This would be proper equal opportunity. You start with good education and health care, and after that you make your own decisions about what to do with your life. If you want to become a business owner and be rich, good for you. If you want to live small and be a simple writer, that's cool too. Edit: Also, parents don't always teach their children how to be successful. While it is true that it is the parent's fault, a better education system would help keep kids on the right track to success by their own hands.

Haha Clinton should be in prison with that SAP email situation. She has been involved in this administration and hasn't achieved a single thing. I'm not talking about mental health children. I'm talking about normal dumb people (where did that even come from and its still not my problem either way unless it is my child). Also, education systems can only take anyone so far. Most of the work comes from independent study habits beyond what is learned in the classroom. You can learn more than enough even in poverty if you want to. Scholarships are plentiful for intelligent individuals with ambition. Information is public, especially now with the internet. Equal footing is not the government's job. They should not be involved in anyone's personal life and universal healthcare is a joke. We need to go back to the original system. If you can't afford something that isn't a right, you shouldn't have it.