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Edited by Auver:
11/5/2015 6:52:26 PM
73
What I don't understand about christianity
This will probably be a long post.
1.) [b][u]Predestination[/u][/b]
"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,…”
Ephesians 1:5 (KJV). So is this verse saying that you don't have a choice about becoming a christian? God just decides for you just because he thinks it's good? There are also verses that state that God predestinates people to hell (I can't find them now), so what is the purpose of trying to be a Christian if you are predestined to hell? I just don't understand how a God that loves everyone could predestine people to hell, not to mention, “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God..."
Romans 8:28 (KJV)
2.) [b][u]God's Wrath[/u][/b]
“And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”
Revelation 14:19-20 (KJV) Six hundred furlongs = roughly 800 miles. Yep sounds like a merciful and loving God to me!
I'm sorry if I sound like I'm cherry picking verses, I'm not trying to. These are the two main things I don't understand about christianity.
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Mixing Jesus's teachings with angry/jealous/sexist YHWH doesn't work so well.
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2 RepliesI'm not a theologian, but God knows all choices we make, because we made them. Therefore, he knows whether we will be going to heaven or to hell. Of course the obvious thing to say is "But we don't have free will then, do we?". No, we have free will. It's just that God knows what we are going to choose. He didn't make those choices for us, we made them. Trying to understand such a seeming contradiction with our brand of logic will get us nowhere. It's something you just have to accept on faith. As for God's wrath, I believe neo782 explained it quite well. God's wrath is directed at sin. There are a lot of verses in the bible that are downright confusing. It's why there is a whole career dedicated to theology. So many factors have to be taken into account: translation, time period, culture of that period, etc.
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29 RepliesWhile I'm probably going to get yelled at for saying this, I see Christianity as an excuse. An excuse for people to hate, an excuse for not minding your own business, and an excuse for telling other people how to live their lives. While I understand that it was founded on beneficial ideas, many of those ideas have become outdated and nonrelevant, yet people still cherrypick these things to discriminate against others, in the same part of the bible that says a man loving another man is wrong, it says you can't wear clothes of different materials and shave your beard. If you wanna be a Christian, be a Christian, not a hateful and discriminatory douche. Love, and observant atheist
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20 RepliesOne part of the Bible:[quote]I have seen the face of God.[/quote] Another part:[quote]no one has seen the face of God[/quote]
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2 RepliesAs a theology major studying to be a pastor, let me try to help you here. The version of predestination you are discussing was a misunderstanding of the teachings of Calvin. While I can only give you my understanding of predestination, I hope this helps. In simple terms (as a short post does not do this justice) God knows everything, including whether we will accept or reject His offer. He extends grace to everyone, but He knows if you will refuse. He offers the grace anyways. As for the wrath section, the wrath is not directed at people, but rather at sin. Sin is the very opposite of God, and it cannot exist in His presence. His very nature demands that He eradicates sin, but He grants us a long time to accept His mercy. After this time is up, however, God must, as the just judge, punish sin. Since sin cannot exist in His presence, someone who sins is separated from Him, and sin leads others to do the same, doubting God or turning from Him, leading to others being separated from God. Because of this, it is a very serious crime, as the one who commits it is affecting the eternal destiny of another. On the flip side, the only people who are punished are those who refuse His grace. Everyone has the opportunity to accept Him, and so no one is forced into Hell. It is always a choice. God even gives a choice to those who have never heard of Him (the theology behind this last statement is a rather lengthy discussion, so I will spare you the details).
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3 RepliesTide goes in, tide goes out. You can't explain that
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2 RepliesJesus died for our sins [spoiler]so sin away we've got a free pass[/spoiler]
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3 RepliesOP is lettuce
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8 RepliesI think the argument could be made that we don't have as much free will as those that claim their god gave it to us claim. It's an incredibly difficult thing to conclude. It would seem that either way we're left with not as much choice as we'd like to have. I just wish more of us could recognize and admit that.
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1 ReplyEdited by Logfish111: 11/6/2015 12:53:45 PMNothing about Christianity makes sense, it's basically just a symptom of delusion. No point in framing it in any other way.
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3 RepliesFirst paragraph, he loves you, therefore he gives you the decision to love and follow him. It's your choice.
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See here's the thing. We were pre-ordained to do this. Nobody is ever predestined for anything which is why we have agency (the power to choose) pre ordination means that nothing can hold us back from salvation only ourselves. It's our choice. (But I can see how you can confuse the two :)
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5 RepliesFor your first point: He knows all. He knows what is going to happen before it does. He can't allow sinners into heaven. Point 2: Better in context.
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1 ReplyThis is why I'm agonistic. I don't give a -blam!-.
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35 RepliesEdited by ProYunk: 11/5/2015 8:59:32 PMPredestination is one of the most difficult and challenging concepts in the Bible. But it's definitely in there. It comes down to a few fundamental pillars. God is All powerful (omnipotent) God is All knowing (Omniscient) God is Everywhere (Omnipresent) If you believe in those 3 things you have to come to the conclusion that salvation is 100% an act of God alone, and man plays no part in his own redemption. [spoiler]Ephesians 2:8-9English Standard Version (ESV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.[/spoiler] The idea of God choosing some and not others is a theme throughout the entire bible. •Noahs Ark • Lot and his family from Sodom and Gomorrah • The Nation of Israel • David instead of his brothers Based on how the recorded acts of God before, and what the Bible teaches about his character predestination is really not surprising. It is also a forgotten truth that Gods "biggest concern" is his own glory. He chooses some to be vessels of righteousness and other to be vessel of wrath. [spoiler]Romans 9:22-23English Standard Version (ESV) 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—[/spoiler] God has sovereignly designed some people to experience his mercy, and others to experience his wrath. Those who experience his wrath are not innocent. Those who are saved are not innocent. They are sovereignly and miraculously chosen. [spoiler]Romans 3:23-24English Standard Version (ESV) 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,[/spoiler] Gods wrath, or righteous judgement, is absolutely part of his character. The mainstream view of God is very watered down from what is taught throughout the bible.
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57 RepliesTl;dr Nobody cares about what you don't understand about Christianity. If you actually wanted to understand, which you probably don't, if you were smart you would go to church and interact with actual people instead of posting bullshit on the Internet.
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Predestined means God knows who is and who isn't going to become a Christian The wrath of God towards us when we sin against him was redirected to Jesus Christ when he died on the cross, then resurrected. This wrath that you talk about know is towards Satan and those who follow him
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6 RepliesI wouldn't discuss things like this until you read the entirety. Context is everything.
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https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/135753455/0/0 Combat misinformation.
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1 ReplyYou look cute today
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16 RepliesPredestination is no longer a practiced belief in the Christian sects... That dates back to European historical religious movements As for his wrath, I personally don't believe God is a wrathful deity. I'm Catholic (Christian sect again) and we read the bible for subjective (emotional) rules. We take the bible as a "story book". Sure some things are accurate. But others, being stretched from human lenses as the bible was written by, are for moral rules. Some Christian religions don't even believe the bible as a holy book (Mormons) but they're still Christian. Christianity itself is a complex web of multiple religions. I think it's fun to dig around and look at my brother religions! :)
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13 RepliesYou can't have God without a Satan figure. Good is good because of evil and evil is evil because of good. It's an Eastern philosophy. Hot exists because of cold, up because of down etc... Without one, there would be no other.
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1 ReplyEdited by Humanpudding741: 11/5/2015 8:17:48 PMIf there is a God why doesn't he just come to earth and prove it. If he loves us wouldn't he WANT us to go to heaven. Isn't it really that simple. Don't say that "thats not giving us free will" because we can still make our own decisions on how we live our lives.[spoiler]The god from the bible can do ANYTHING he wants, why not just prove to everyone there is a god.[/spoiler] I agree with you I'm just adding some of my thoughts
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3 RepliesEdited by Ogma: Destroyer of Worlds: 11/5/2015 8:05:46 PMYou're asking the right questions. Keep at it. It is not possible for god to be both omnipotent/omniscient and for him to be solely a good and loving god at the same time. Is god willing to prevent evil bit not able? - Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing? - Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? - Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? - Then why call him god? Epicurus
