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Edited by AttilaTheNvn: 2/12/2016 8:13:39 AM
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Give me a single good reason why we can't Infuse Year 1, Bungie.

-Don't compare it to other "MMOs." -Don't compare it to other Shooters. -Simply approach the issue within the confines of [i]this[/i] game, and this game [i]alone[/i], and try to find a good argument. It doesn't matter what OTHER games do, because this isn't OTHER games; this is [b]Destiny[/b]. ____________________________________ The #1 reason I hear as to why Year 1 should be left behind seems to be this: [b]"Year 1 is too powerful to compete with Year 2."[/b] Now, I see this posted [i]endlessly[/i] on the forums, despite these two problems with it: [b]1. It's a glaring, unfounded overgeneralization. 2. It implies that (assuming Year 1 gear [i]is[/i] overpowered) capping Light Levels will actually [i]fix that[/i].[/b] With these two points, I'm going to show exactly why cries of "overpowered gear" have no facts to support them, and how leaving Year 1 behind does nothing to address the issue [i]either way[/i] [b](TL;DR at the end)[/b] ____________________________________ [u][b]Point #1- Is Year 1 [i]actually[/i] overpowered?[/b][/u] -The Devil You Know -Murmur -The Scholar -Low-Grade Humility -Praetorian Foil -Fang of Ir Yut -Vanquisher VIII -Atheon's Epilogue -Against All Odds -Gheleon's Demise -The Infinite Theorem Read through that list. Have you ever heard the term "overpowered" associated with any of them? Because, in full confidence, I'm willing to bet that you haven't, nor have you heard it associated with any of the [i]other 95% of the weapons in Year 1.[/i] Sure, many people swear by some of those weapons, and would even call them "great," but never [i]overpowered[/i]. In addition, if you still think Year 1 [i]perks[/i] are still to powerful to be brought forward, you should read the [url=https://www.bungie.net/7_Destiny-Update---09082015/en/News/News?aid=13474]extensive nerfing Bungie did to them in 2.0[/url] When people refer to "Year 1" as overpowered, I imagine these are usually the weapons they have in mind: -Fatebringer -The Last Word -Thorn -Felwinter's Lie/Matador 64/Etc. -The Messenger/Hopscotch Pilgrim/Etc. -Gjallarhorn Now, lets look at the state of these weapons as they exist after the 2.0 patch: [quote][b]Fatebringer:[/b] |NERFED| While still one of the best [i]handcannons[/i] for PvE, the overall HC nerf has brought it down to be more in line with other primaries [i]in general[/i]. And, let's be honest; it was [i]never[/i] viewed as being OP in PvP, and that hasn't changed. [b]TLW:[/b] |NERFED| Specifically addressed with a SEVERE nerf to stability, range, and accuracy in 2.0, it's still a capable weapon in skilled hands, but not at all on the level it was before. [b]Thorn:[/b] |NERFED| Also addressed with substantial nerf, leaving its DOT ability substantially re-tooled, which makes it a more standard 3-shot-kill, and prevents players from relying solely on poison damage. Still great, but no longer the ubiquitous choice for PvP that it was before. [b]Felwinter:[/b] |NERFED| As with all high-impact shotguns, the general consensus has been that the gun itself wasn't the underlying issue; the [i]perks[/i] were. With 2.0, Rangefinder's effectiveness was substantially reduced, and 2.0.1 straight-up removed Shotpackage [i]entirely[/i]. Because of that, the high-impact archetype is much more balanced across the board, with the low ROF becoming a more noticeable drawback in exchange for stopping power. [b]The Messenger:[/b] |NERFED| While not as glaringly "OP" as the other entries on this list, high-impact PRs were generally viewed as being slightly too capable in the HoW Meta. In 2.0, they received a slight, universal decrease in stability to help keep them from dominating PvP going forward, and have since been nerfed [u]even harder[/u]. [b]Gjallarhorn:[/b] |NERFED| Arguably the most notoriously "overpowered" weapon in any game [i]ever[/i], Ghorn's signature "Wolfpack Rounds" perk was given a noticeable damage decrease in 2.0, bringing it [i]somewhat[/i] in line with other Rocket Launchers. It's still arguably the hardest hitting launcher in the game, but it's no longer the boss-melter that it once was. [/quote] There are other examples, but, [i]again[/i], these are generally the most widely-accepted "overpowered" weapons in the game; however, as you can see, they've [i]already been balanced in 2.0.[/i] Not only has the [i]majority[/i] of Year 1 gear been perfectly balanced [i]to begin with[/i], but the small subset that [i]was[/i] overpower has, in large part, [i]already been dealt with.[/i] [b]Saying that "Year 1 is too powerful to compete with Year 2" is not only a glaring, unfounded overgeneralization, but is [i]demonstrably untrue [u]altogether[/u][/i] in the post-2.0 Meta.[/b] [i]Also, there are still SOME Year 1 weapons and armor that continue to drop at TTK levels, both as Crucible and Story drops, and in these cases, it [u]literally[/u] only serves as a way to artificially inflate playtimes, with no actual effect on the Meta.[/i] ____________________________________ [u][b]Point #2- Does capping Light Levels actually solve anything?[/b][/u] First off- It should be pointed out that overpowered gear has zero [i]negative effects[/i] on players in [i]Cooperative, PvE environments[/i]. As such, no weapon (such as Fatebringer or Ghorn) should ever be held back purely on the basis of being too good against [b]A.I. COMBATANTS[/b]. If Bungie wants to nerf overpowered PvE weapons, that's fine, but no one is being negatively impacted by them in the [i]mean time[/i]. Second- Given that Light Levels don't affect [i]90% of Crucible[/i], capping Year 1 gear almost [i]exclusively[/i] affects PvE players, which (as stated above) does nothing to [i]improve[/i] PvE players' experiences. Instead, it shits on every [u]minute[/u] of effort players have put into Year 1 by needlessly invalidating every [i]single[/i] piece of gear that they've earned; not just weapons and armor, but freaking ghosts and [i]COSMETIC ITEMS[/i] (seriously, WHY?). The only [i]true[/i] way to balance weapons (across both PvP [u]and[/u] PvE) is via [b]patches[/b], which, as I pointed out in Point #1, Bungie has [i]already done.[/i] As such, why the hell is Year 1 gear (that has already been balanced in 2.0) [i]still being held back?![/i] In the case of guns like Fatebringer and Ghorn (which were only ever OP in [i]PvE[/i], to begin with), capping them at 170 only serves to cripple them in the portion of the game they were [i]meant to shine in[/i]. Even if they WEREN'T nerfed in 2.0, these weapons never harmed anyone's experience [u]in the first place[/u], so what's the point? And, in the case of PvP; in addition to the fact that the MAJORITY of PvP has Light Levels disabled, all the most egregiously overpower PvP weapons have been [i]already been nerfed in 2.0[/i]. Seriously, though; standard PvP is clearly more balanced than it was before, which has EVERYTHING to do with the 2.0 patch, and NOTHING to do with capping Light Levels. So, again, if Year 1 weapons are balanced in regular Crucible [i]at the stat level[/i], there is no discernible reason to keep them out of Endgame PvP, and even LESS reason to keep them out of PvE where they never had any negative effect on players [i]IN THE FIRST PLACE![/i] ____________________________________ [b][u]So, Bungie; what gives?[/u][/b] If the groundwork has already been laid, and it isn't going to harm anyone's experience, [i]why isn't Year 1 Infusable?[/i] Seriously, even a simple confirmation that it's being [i]discussed[/i] would be a start. -[u][b]TL;DR[/b][/u]- [u][b]Point #1- Is Year 1 [i]actually[/i] overpowered?[/b][/u] [quote]1. No matter how many times people claim that Year 1 is "overpowered," that statement is demonstrably, [i]provably[/i] false. Since the 2.0 patch, Year 1 weapons have been thoroughly balanced alongside their Year 2 counterparts (both on the individual level, and by way of nerfs to the [i]entire[/i] Year 1 perk set). One look at the current state of the Crucible (which includes Year 1 [i]and[/i] Year 2, mind you), and it's easily apparent that the PvP meta has [i]never[/i] been more balanced- [i]ever[/i]. And, if it's balanced in PvP, then it's [i]definitely[/i] balanced for [i]co-operative[/i] environments.[/quote] [u][b]Point #2- Does capping Light Levels actually solve anything?[/b][/u] [quote]2. Leaving Year 1 behind by capping Light Levels does [i]nothing[/i] to improve player experience [i]in any way[/i]. And, it almost exclusively harm's [i]PvE[/i] players, because Year 1 gear is still perfectly competitive in 95% of PvP arenas, whereas Year 1 is now entirely [i]non-competitive[/i] for serious PvE environments (which, coincidentally, is the one environment where overpowered gear [i][b]doesn't[/b][/i] harm players... Go figure!). And, again, in that same mindset, regardless of how prevalently Elemental Primaries are used (which seems to be a big part of Bungle's reasoning), did that negatively affect [i]anyone?[/i] [b][u]No, it didn't[/u][/b]. As Endgame rewards, Elemental Primaries were prestigious, and accordingly difficult to obtain. As such, it would be weird if they [b]didn't[/b] offer something special to differentiate them from everything else! If the rewards weren't superior, how as many of us even ran HM Raids, at all? Or Skolas? Or Trials? Seriously, it's not rocket science; it's great game design, and I have no clue why Bungie decided to remove that system. [/quote]

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  • Edited by AlexisRivera: 10/15/2015 10:36:25 AM
    For those who don't get what the OP explained, please consider this question: [b]Why people are so attached to the gear here?[/b] Its simple, Destiny introduced the concept of getting weapons and UPGRADING them, this involved spending literal hours of our time farming the resources to upgrade them and played the hell out of the game to unlock their upgrades. The system has proven incredibly successful... Too successful. It creates attachment to guns that feel right to us. Since weapons are meant to be upgraded by design it is only fair to think that you can carry on upgrading your old favorites. Its not a crazy argument either. [b]Why this is not a crazy notion?[/b] The game has reinforced and expanded on the concept since the very beginning and the DLCs that followed: [b]The base game[/b] introduced weapons with upgrade paths and material resources requirements. and the idea that each piece of gear has a "cool" story behind it. [b]The Dark Below DLC[/b] introduced ascending exotics. At a high cost of both time and resources to re level up our progress in exchange for higher upgrades. [b]The House of Wolves DLC[/b] also reinforced the notion by allowing us to use etheric light to make our weapons more powerful to keep our hard work relevant and our favorites still in use. It also introduced reforging for a chance at better perks making legendaries relevant too and worth upgrading. Weapons reflect what you have done in Destiny since the meta is tied to these upgrade loop. It grates on people that ARTIFICIAL limits its the only thing holding back their favorite guns and armor. We have no one but Bungie to blame for this mess. up to now. we naturally left behind older guns for new ones because of better perk combinations and cool looks and feel. Having suddenly suddenly imposed an artificial barrier to the upgrade paths that Bungie got us accustomed to in the game (for honestly bogus reasons) is the root of the problem.

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    • Because bungie only wants us to use year 2 they want us to forget year 1 so year 3 we won't be able to use year 2 and so on lol

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    • Because you wouldn't need to grind as much and make our game look like its really just THAT much fun to play. We can't have game informer saying we are the most popular game of the year without the hours to back it ya know..

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      • Let thorn die

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        • Move on man

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        • I agree everything I play now, even though I do like some of the new year 2 items, I keep going back to the though. Man I wish I old use this item that's year 1.... Over and over again... Just seems like we took a step back here regarding items usable in pve

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        • Bump

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        • Edited by Joesie: 10/23/2015 8:57:18 PM
          We found stronger weapons in the taken king. There were ways to bring some of our old gear back but not all of it. Grow with the game, you spent some time with your toys. It's time to leave them behind and get new ones. If everything was ascended there'd be less incentive to farm the new gear. Not only that but there would be a major power creep because guns would need to constantly get better. You're experiences DO matter, you spent time getting that great and you should be proud of that. It'll be a fond memory and something to look forward to on that next item you strive for.

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        • I'm guessing Year One gear won't be infuseable for a few reasons. There are some perks on year one Armor that cannot be rolled anymore, aside from on certain exotics. A great example of this would be Special Weapon Loader on Arms, which was a very, VERY good perk. There was also the overall increased Heavy Ammo on legendary boots, which now is only obtainable on certain exotics. In order to make a majority of the old armor work for infusion, they'd have to go back and re-work every armor piece not to have that perk, replacing it with others still befitting of their status as in some cases, Raid Gear or Prison of Elders armor. It should also be pointed out that new armor has you select between which stat you want high, where as Year One naturally gives you very high amounts of Strength, Discipline, and Intelligence. Not only this, but armor like the new Chest pieces have the 2 new perks that either reduce splash damage for a certain burn, or give you increased armor when using a different subclass with a certain burn. These old pieces of armor don't have perks like that, and since these perks are specific to certain pieces of gear everything would need to be re-worked in order to accommodate the changes they made to Year 2's armor. As for weapons, it comes down to the issue of raw power, perk combinations considered too decent to be let out en mass, and the fact that none of these weapons fit in with the new skill trees, or themes. In terms of power, a majority of the weapons from year one would be out of place. They would be paired against weapons inadvertently worse than them just due to the changes made between year one and year two. These old weapons have also been re-rolled to their absolute perfect state. I myself had a few year one guns that were absolutely monstrous in PVP and PVE content. Bringing these weapons up to date would cause some major issues. There would be anther rise in shotguns with Shot Package on all the old high impact Shotguns from HoW, there would be luck in the chamber snipers pulling their one shot body shot nonsense, and all other kinds of things I wouldn't like to see. Just as a quicker insert, there would also be lots of guns who no longer fit their archetype as there have been stay changes since HoW, like most snipers only holding 4 bullets, or pulse rifles with much larger mags than what they had in the past. Although it's a weaker point, since people could get some RNG on the current weapons that would compare to older ones, it's still a point. I think the fact that multiple old weapons, namely primaries, had burns, speaks for itself. They want to save weapons with burns for End-Game rewards, the last thing they'd want is people dragging up a good old VoC or FB. As for what I said about the themes, it's the idea that none of these weapons would have any of the new weapon foundations backing them up, making a mass of weapons holding a unique skill tree when they're nothing alike. Not to mention that none of these guns would be able to use the new perks, scopes, or dragons that were developed. Bungee would be sinking resources into a project that couldn't take full advantage of what they had taken so long to develop. Then there's the exotics. My guess here is simply that they want to zone out some of the exotics in the game. They want the community to shift their focus from them. Like Icebreaker. Because of how the gun was designed, they can't really nerf it. They could nerf its stats, and make it near unusable, as it relies on the high impact to trade off for the 6 rounds in a mag until the next 30 seconds pass (I believe). But Imagine a gun that infinitely regenerates it's sniper bullets in the new raid, where you'll have situations like Oryx, who you have to DPS for a short period of time with high impact. Sounds a little too perfect, if you were using icebreaker. There are also guns like Gjallahorn, which, although nerfed, just don't need a comeback. It's still the highest DPS RL out there, from what I can tell, and that's not really what I PERSONALLY want to see, is another wave of those people who won't allow you into their game because you don't have a specific gun (even though it's already started with ToM (which isn't actually as bad because ToM is a quest gun that everyone can obtain without RNG)) I think the most productive solution to this would just be to accept it as a loss, that the time you spent getting those will be some good memories, but not much more. If they ever do offer them up for infusing, then hey, it's fantastic. I just think it would be a little game breaking right now.

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          • I'm pissed that so many exotics got left behind, especially if you're a scout rifle user. As cool as the Boolean Gemini may look to some, it's terribad as an exotic and has zero reason for being one, especially when it comes to PVP. OH BOY AN AGILITY BUFF that does a 10% increase which is impossible for me to notice, same as the Armor boost. Mida Multi Tool at least offered a slew of perks, stats and abilities that made it one hell of a good weapon. Great recoil, great accuracy, great perks that made it dominate in PVP when used by a skilled player who could use each to their fullest. But with Jade Rabit being PS exclusive, the Touch of Malice doing quite possibly nothing without killing you, and if you're not a warlock, then well, coo coo ka choo you're screwed aren't you? Not even touching upon the fact that there are barely any exotic scout rifles in the game that aren't Suros or Omolon.

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          • If we could infuse year 1, we wouldn't have to grind for the guns that [i]they[/i] want us to want.

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          • Bub, I've tried pleading with some of this crowd and Bungie about returning our weapons. Bungie ignores it, and then there are those Bungie-bots who are adamantly against returning those weapons to us! IDK why, unless of course those Bungie-bots never had them cuz there newbies and would be jealous of those who do possess them. Or, those Bungie-bots dismantled theirs and, again, would be jealous of those who hadn't. They all come up with some really colorful arguments against why Yr 1's shouldn't be added into the TTK selection such as "you suck". I mean, damn, those Bungie-bots are so perceptively intelligent that I feel positively insecure about my own low level of intelligence. As for Bungie, I will tell you exactly why those weapons are not in the TTK selection. Because they did not want new players being left out! It is that simple.

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          • Bungie year 3 will allow us to infuse year 1 gear that we all broke down

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            • Because they think they know how you should play the game better than you do. Which will lead to their failure.

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              • You wouldn't play as much.

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                • *cough*ethericlight*cough*

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                • Bump

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                • They want us to try new things and basically test the game, they want to move on to new things, they are tired of everyone depending on one or two weapons when they put allot of money time and effort into the new ones, my friends said something yesterday about them revamping the vault of glass. Let's hope that's true

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                • The year one weapons looked and were too good, so Bungie decided to kill them and replaced them with blue cr*p. Also: Raid weapons are Necrochasm, just changed colour palate and distort it a bit.

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                  • Let me put it simply. The weapons that they designed in year 1 were higher tier than they should have began with. They made raid weapons with elemental damage with godlike perks in the first raid. They had guns like gally and thorn that were clearly broken. They didn't put infusion for year 1 weapons because they needed to essentially wipe the slate clean and start new because they had weapons that would never have been outclassed in year 2. Everyone would still be running around with their gallys their fate bringers their black hammers their fellow winters lie etc. This was needed to have more variety in weapon choice and not have such a small set of viable weapons. It sucks, I know I miss those weapons, but it was the only way they could make the game better for the future.

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                    • So a lot of people are mentioning Gjallarhorn. *pulls up Black Hammer, the weapon that had limitless ammo, therefore adding up to more damage dealt than Gjallarhorn* That's cute.

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                      • Unfortunately the most rational answers i can come up with for you are ones that might be a little cold/ not good enough. Just talking about year 1 weapons, they did it purely from a design perspective. That perspective being that creating new year 2 weapons will create a new arsenal that current invested players will have to adapt to. It refreshens the weapon meta from year 2. It also gives them room to start making a new arsenal of weapons without having to constantly consintrate on everything. Im sure you've heard this before however so let me give you the other, colder, reason. Because they can. And they did. You asked Bungie was to give you a good reason as to why they left year 1 weapons out of year 2. Im sure that their answer is that they dont need one. You have to think that they have already thought this arguement through. They had to think about it in one capacity or another. They didn't just arbitrarily decide to do it this way. Am i saying to just blindly trust them? No. But i am saying that most of these decisions are probably just as heatedly argued about in the development team. These are actual people making these games. Not just heartless machines. I guess what im saying is to keep speaking your mind. Keep arguing and keep beeing passionate. But try to understand the perspective of the devs as well. Most of what you are arguing has been said a thousand times over in house. So make a better arguement. Keep voicing your opinion. But try to understand EVERY counter arguement.

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                        • It's simply so ghallahorn is left behind

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                        • Base stats are too high. Would render most year two weapons obsolete. If we could bring up year 1 weapons there are very few new weapons I would use

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                          • Theres reasons. But none of them are good. Mainly it's just the fact that the aren't able to make weapons we'd want to use over the year one weapons. They basically admitted that was the case. They said they want us to experience the new weapons they've made for us. Which we would have done anyway if they'd been on par with year 1 but since they aren't they have to force us by taking year one away

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                          • Very upset year 1 guns cannot be infused to year 2 especially with all my pointless etheric light lying around. I mean this isn't even a real MMO. If it was than I could understand but come on bungie, I grinded for that fatebringer didn't get it until august. I played my heart out on VOG since inseption.

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