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Destiny

Discuss all things Destiny.
Edited by Astral Centipede: 11/5/2015 6:22:29 AM
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The Books of Sorrow, Oryx, and the failure of Destiny's storytelling

EDIT: made a cult https://www.bungie.net/en/Clan/Detail/1320598 Prior to learning about the Books of Sorrow, I just saw Oryx as some generic evil dark lord without much dimension, and I saw the Hive in a similarly simplistic way. This is because of the poor storytelling and characterization that still persists in Destiny, even with The Taken King's improvements in this aspect. After learning them from the Books of Sorrow, I see Oryx as more of an intellectual, and a fascinating figure. I now want to reject the Traveler's light, master the Sword Logic, make myself sharp, and help the universe achieve it's final perfect shape. For those who haven't unlocked the full Books of Sorrow or would rather to listen here is the audio version: [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh48jdKsL30]Part 1[/url] [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C7PFvhKSQo]Part 2[/url] -Explains where the Hive came from, and how they came to be what they are. Their original planet crashed into a gas giant called Fundament, and they lived on pieces floating on the liquid hydrogen mantle. -Explains how in their quest to take back their kingdom from a usurper and stop a world-ending event, Oryx (formerly female before taking the "king morph") and his sisters used an alien ship to dive into the core where they found the worms. The worms were trapped by a being called the leviathan--a servant of the Traveler who was keeping the worms prisoner. -Explains how they formed a symbiosis by ingesting the worms to become immortal, and other effects of such a union. -Explains the the Hive's motive and the philosophy they learned from the worm gods (and rejection of the Traveler). They believe in a very extreme version of survival of the fittest, and they eradicate any life they find (and they found a lot) not out of malice, but out of a desire to free the universe from any form of weakness. To the Hive, if you continue on existing, then you deserve to exist, but if die, it is because you were weak and deserved it. They're helping the universe take it's final perfect eternal shape where only strength is left. -There is also the Sword Logic, and it is that philosophy of of extreme survival of the fittest, but has some metaphysical implications when the powers granted by the worms are involved. One example of this involves cutting through space to create portals of travel; Xivu Arath (Oryx's knight sister) was the first to discover this technique with her Sword Logic. -Very powerful members of the Hive do not simply die; their minds create a universe called a "throne world," where they go when they die (like Crota's raid location), and the way to truly kill them is to kill them there. In the throne worlds, the Sword Logic is physical law, and by killing things, you gain their strength, and can achieve godhood. Example: once, Oryx and his sisters were in a serious risk of being wiped out during one of their wars against another empire, so the sisters had Oryx kill them so that he can gain their power, and then used that power to kill a worm god (Akka) to then take the power he needed to turn the tides of war (actually how he became The Taken King). -Worms feed on the defining aspect of your personality. Oryx's feeds on his inquisitiveness, Xivu Arath's (knight sister) feeds on her violence and strength, and Savathûn's (smart wizard sister) feeds on her cunning. By performing acts related relating to his sisters' defining traits, he actually brought them back to life. He waged a bloody war, allowing Xivu Arath to rise from the blood of the slain and be reborn because Xivu Arath is war. By tricking his enemies into a trap, Oryx's cunning allowed his sister Savathûn to come back to life since Savathûn is cunning. Theoretically, Oryx could be brought back to life if his sisters (or someone else with the Sword Logic powerful enough) did an act of discovery or inquisitiveness large enough. -The more you feed your worm, the more hungry it becomes, and ultimately it is unsustainable. At a certain point there will be no way to feed your worm enough to satisfy it, and it will kill you. Oryx came up with a great solution of tithe/taxing which passes energy up the chain of command to feed higher ranking hive. -Oryx not only talked the talk, but he walked the walk. Anyone was allowed to challenge him in court. His philosophy applied to himself also; if he loses, he knows it's because he deserves to lose. -My absolute favorite thing about the Books of Sorrow is how it details the beautiful familial relationship between Oryx, Savathûn, Xivu Arath, and even Crota and Oryx's twin daughters (who are damn geniuses, they came up with so much cool stuff). They have this competitive relationship where they constantly try to kill each other (Sword Logic/survival of the fittest), but at the same time they truly love each other. I have some excerpts from the Books of Sorrow Grimoire cards that illustrate this perfectly. XXII Verse 3:2 — The High War Now in this time of diaspora there was a war between AURYX and SAVATHÛN and XIVU ARATH. Brother Auryx, said SAVATHÛN, do not forgive my betrayal. Instead, take vengeance upon me for what I did at the dry moon! And AURYX made war on her, in worship of the Deep. Between them stood XIVU ARATH saying, stop, or I will kill you, war is mine and I am strongest. This was how they worshipped. For twenty thousand years they fought across the moons and they fought in the abyssal plains and lightning palaces of each other's sword spaces. And they killed each other again and again, so that they could practice death. Such was their love. At last the many moons came to many worlds and it was time to go to war on life. AURYX said, I shall establish a court, and whoever comes into this court may challenge me. My court will be the High War. It will be a killing ground and a school of the sword logic we have learned from our gods. SAVATHÛN thought this was a great idea. She made a court called the High Coven. XIVU ARATH said, the world is my court, wherever there is war. XXXV Verse 4:5 — This Love Is War Xivu upon Oryx — Uttered by Xivu Arath — Sibling of Oryx — [...] RESURRECTION. Savathûn and I conspired to strand Oryx on his expedition. But I secretly believe that I will be stronger with Oryx to war against. Thus I describe him. A DESCRIPTION OF ORYX. When Oryx looks upon you, you feel that you may vanish if he looks away. The crest of Oryx’s skull is as long as an arm. In the course of its life, a thought moves from one end to the other. Upon his crest I have painted a line in my blood, so that he will remember me. Each of Oryx’s fangs has the precision of a finger and the acuity of an eye. Although he was born at the bottom of the universe, and taught to burrow, Oryx has grown wings. The light of wildfire shines through them. Oryx teaches but he will not be taught. Oryx’s body is corded with strength. His sinews and his muscles are as strong as his children, and his children are the strength of him. Oryx wears a raiment of worm silk, made from the caul of gods. The voice of Oryx may cause two different numbers to become equal. Oryx my Brother is the bravest thing I know. Upon Fundament he learned that we were the natural prey of the universe, the most frail and desperate of things. He thought about this carefully and he found a way to fix it. He made us strong. He will lead us into eternity. Oryx my Brother loves me and this love is war. -Other interesting Grimoire cards from the book of sorrows I find to be very interesting for understanding Oryx. XXIII Verse 3:3 — fire without fuel [...] I feel joy, and sorrow. I feel them as titanic things, because I am larger than my body, my mind is now a cosmos of its own. I know more joy and more anguish than the entire Qugu race could ever experience. Sorrow, because we have killed so much (eighteen species this century alone), and joy for the same reason. Joy that we have put down these blights. Scoured them away and left the universe clean, ready to move towards its final shape. We are a wind of progress. Ripping parasites from the material world — for if they were not parasites, we would be unable to kill them, and they would still exist. And what is that final shape? It is a fire without fuel, burning forever, killing death, asking a question that is its own answer, entirely itself. That is what we must become. My worm grows fat and hungry. I feed it with whole worlds. My astronomers tell me they can sense the Deep Itself, and that we are conquering our way towards it. I think joy and sorrow will be the same thing soon. Like love and death. XLIV Verse 5:2 — strict proof eternal [...] “I don’t have a strict proof yet, you know.” Savathûn strokes the void with one long claw and space-time groans beneath her touch. “This thing we believe — that we’re liberating the universe by devouring it, that we’re cutting out the rot, that we’re on course to join the final shape — I haven’t found a strict, eternal proof. We might yet be wrong.” Oryx looks at her and for a moment, just a moment, he is nostalgic, he is sentimental. He thinks, imagine the years behind us, the things we’ve done. And yet being old doesn’t feel like a scar, does it? It hasn’t left me dull. I feel alive, alive with you, and every time I step back into this world from my throne I feel like I’m two years old again, at the bottom of the universe, looking up. But he says, “Sister, it’s us. We’re the proof, we the Hive: if we last forever, we prove it, and if something more ruthless conquers us, then the proof is sealed.” She looks back at him with eyes like hot needles. “I like that,” she says. “That’s elegant.” Although of course she has had this thought before. EDIT: Out of space, more here https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/160013190/0/0/1 (scroll all the way down)

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  • Fun fact: if you read the 3 Oryx cards, someone is writing to Eris (we can only presume it is Toland based on the content). He speaks of how when a Hive God falls, another will rise. Many believe that Toland will become the new God of the Hive and shift them from killing every race in their path social Darwinist to more neutral.

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  • Dude... The story is not in the game, combat is in the game. And for some ridiculous reason they decided the story should reside in the grimoire.

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    • If you invade worlds, you're a douche.

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      • Bump for later

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        • Bungie learned from games like World of Warcraft. People just scroll by quest text. So the default is basically skipping the text. If you are curious, it's all there for you. If you're not, well then you don't give a shit.

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          • That is super interesting but the hive still look absolutely hideous. Like how can one look at them and think .. Oh they can't be evil, no way... They are like one of the most evil looking enemies.

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            • Sheesh man, who can really be bothered with all of this? It's just a game dude!

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              • Maybe Oryx had died somewhere along the way. But you said he could be brought back with a great discovery. Like you know. Discovering the Traveler and the Golden Age of Discovery. And maybe that's why he's just now coming for earth. Of course after his sons death too. But you know. Just a thought.

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              • this just makes me even more confused as to why bungie insists on creating these dumb cards INSTEAD OF USING THEM TO MAKE A GREAT STORY IN GAME......

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                • Edited by Professor Oak: 10/7/2015 12:16:05 AM
                  maybe i'm biased because i like stories, but Yes. Destiny had a great amount of potential storywise, and the majority was wasted. A few extra cutscenes (which are now skippable, by the way), some relevant dialogue in the vendor menus of all those important NPCs, and maybe some of the grimoire cards where it's incredibly inconvenient from a development perspective to include all of the context necessary for explaining key concepts of the game's setting would've really helped. And that's only for the really complex narratives. There were simple parts of the atmosphere that went grossly underdeveloped; things that we take for granted every time we visit the Tower and supposedly are reminded of what our characters are fighting for, why, and who they're doing it with: Factions, their philosophies, and their disputes/pretty much anything about the Last City itself, and how this particular post-apocalyptic society in a super futuristic setting operates/the personality of almost every NPC (which was thankfully remedied in small amounts with the past few DLCs)/understanding why these multiple antagonistic forces do what they do/understanding more about the nature and limitations of the Light, the Darkness, and Guardians/the impact past Guardians have had on the collective culture Guardians have formed/the relationship between Titans, Warlocks, and Hunters And the list goes on for another umpteen-hundred items, but we can stop there. You get the point. Sticking these pieces of information in as flavor text and grimoire cards isn't always sufficient. You [i]are[/i] receiving a lesser quality product overall by neglecting those aspects. Because this isn't a book, or a movie. It's a video game. And a video game's strength as a medium lies in its interactivity; in making [i]you[/i] feel like part of a living, breathing world that you don't have an opportunity to experience for realsies. Ignoring immersion doesn't make it any less important: just because it's your loss doesn't mean it should be everyone else's, nor should it be used as an excuse for sloppy, shitty writing, or the implementation of it. tl;dr filthy casuls dont kno bout worldbuilding

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                • "The voice of Oryx may cause two different numbers to become equal." He is the most interesting man in the world. "I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis."

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                  • I liken it like this: grim = lore you know, in game storyline is more your character knows. The two are not one in the same.

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                    • And this is why I read all the grimore cards. The lore is absolutely fascinating!!

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                    • That's awesome! Thanks for sharing. What a shame its not implemented into the core game as well. What a cool story. Way better then anything I had thought they had for the Hive.

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                    • Replied for later

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                    • That's awesome! Thanks for sharing. What a shame its not implemented into the core game as well. What a cool story. Way better then anything I had thought they had for the Hive.

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                    • To be fair, this system is well-separated, for the seekers of lore, and the ones who like to shoot things. If you're interested in the mythologies, the stories being woven, etc, then you can pull up the Grimoire and study things. But, if you mostly play for running around and shooting at things...well, you can do that, too.

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                      • Edited by bobswerski: 10/6/2015 8:08:26 PM
                        What's up, Kagehoshi? I think there is something to be said about the grimoire being a way to save the un-inquisitive (assuming you are who I think you are you are obviously more inquisitive and analytical about this stuff than 99% of gamers) the trouble of skipping the text in-game. I too love love love the books of sorrow, they take the best aspects of the year 1 grimoire and make them not so much less obtuse (which might be boring) but less incomplete in that there are no huge gaps in the running narrative ([b]I'm looking at you, Maraid[/b]) that make it seem like it never made it past an outline someone scribbled in a notepad! The storytelling is unquestionably the weakest aspect of year 1, nobody would argue that. It's in a much better place now but I agree completely that there is a way to go. That said, I do rather like the "grimoire system" of storytelling, if you will, as a way to present the really in-depth/deep portions of the lore that might be a bit more than some people care to know. In this case, I'm not reading the spoilers or checking the audio version, it's more exciting picking up fragments that way. That's one of the strengths of the grimoire, it's like collecting trophies but much better because you get more than just the object itself. Often a great deal more. IMO, [b]the grimoire has been a scapegoat, it's not the real problem, just a symptom of the overall weak storytelling. We blame the grimoire because it's all we had[/b]. Ask yourself this question: If the information presented in the "vanilla" grimoire was put in-game, as incomplete as even it was, how much better would the game have been? Yes the story would have been more "accessible" in that you didn't need the app or website to access it, but would it really have tied everything together? I've read the whole thing multiple times and I still have zero idea who the Stranger is, WTF that thing we killed in the black garden was, why the speaker even exists, etc etc. There are so many plot holes and loose ends that even cutscenes of every single card couldn't fix that mess.

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                        • Also I wanted to point out that "hard" raid could potentially be the return of oryx.....or a battle with one, or both, of the sisters. What if the queen, Mara Sov was in actuality Savathun in disguise. What if she (and potentially Eris) manipulated us to defeat Oryx? Thus gaining Oryx's "power" for themselves? Remember Savathun was the "cunning" one. It's possible she used Vex technology to time travel, which would really help in setting us all up as her pawns........just a few thoughts that I had swimming around in my head, I apologize for the wall of text. Have a great day.

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                          • That was so interesting. And I thought the vex and fallen were the only ones with an interesting backstory

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                          • Reply for later

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                          • Excellent write up. I'm truly impressed. Thank you for your time

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                          • Edited by Raedon_VoGraza: 10/6/2015 5:10:59 PM
                            This means that we have come nowhere near killing Oryx, what we did in the raid was akin to shattering the crystal that had Crota's soul in it. To finally kill Oryx, we need to pull a Crota raid for Oryx, meaning that we need to fight him in his throne world. AKA Heroic King's fall Raid. (Hopefully)

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                            • Bump for later pls

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                              • According to the story, if you beat Oryx in the Raid, you've already perfected Sword Logic and don't need to switch sides. Just sayin. ^__~

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                              • It's a damn shame that they left most of that out of the actual game. Would have been pretty cool figuring out more and more history as the story progresses. Great job with explaining everything!

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