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#feedback

Edited by Malphisto: 9/5/2015 9:57:47 AM
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THE HONEST OPINION... (Malphisto's Feedback on Recent Update and Twitch Stream)

Alright, so some folks already know that I have been holding off on posting my personal thoughts on this stuff for a number of reasons. Probably the greatest of those being that I had been drinking (Oh Bungie, you drove me to drink...LOL! Its funny but true! XD ) and obviously was in no fit state to be giving any sort of proper feedback. The other reason, upon finally getting sober, was that I felt the need to just take a sit back, relax and let all the information just sorta brew for a bit. Reflect upon it all. That being said, I'll be giving my honest thoughts on all this. [b][THE GOOD][/b] It would be unfair of me to judge something and render a verdict if I did not also include the positives. Such being the case, I feel it wise to cover the good points and changes that Bungie has made with respect to Destiny's new expansion. [b]1:[/b] "Vault Space"- This was obviously intended to be the highlight of the stream, it kept being alluded to the entire time. The storage has been doubled which is something many have been pushing for a LOT. And when I say many? I mean MANY. Pretty sure media outlets have even talked about it as well. I personally don't ever suffer from a lack of space, but there are hardcore collectors out there who greatly needed it and this definitely benefits them. [b]2:[/b] "Character Levels"- Light no longer determines your actual level. This is excellent because now players have more of a reason to go around killing things. As with any game that has a leveling/exp system, the greatest joy is always in getting that "Level Up" which puts a smile on your face. [b]3:[/b] "Marks"- Combing the Vanguard and Crucible Marks into a single currency was smart since now folks don't HAVE to force themselves to play PvP if they want to get stuff from the Crucible Vendors and vice versa. You also remove that annoying Weekly Limit which seriously made no sense originally. Its also cross characters, so people can now use a single toon to build up their other Guardians. [b]4:[/b] "Class Items and Ghosts"- Holy crap, they ACTUALLY both do something now outside of just looking pretty. I remember players back like, within the first couple weeks of the game having first launched giving their own feedback and making suggestions that these items should play an actual role in the game. Nice to see this welcome change. [b]5:[/b] "Exotic Blueprints"- I love the concept of the Blueprints itself, being able to have an actual collection list so that once you get them you will always have them. [b][THE BAD][/b] ALRIGHT! So probably the part of this post that most were wanting to see the most. (Bungie too?) Now there were a few other things that I personally thought were considered good but I didn't think were a big deal enough to make the above list. Unfortunately, despite all the various positives with the TTK, there is one very LARGE glaring negative which is just so monumentally huge that these redeeming qualities just don't manage to make up for in the least. Said issue had me so ridiculously furious that I needed to distance myself for everything Destiny related and then proceeded to drink the rest of the night in hopes of improving my mood. (For anyone curious: it proved to be a success) BUT FIRST! I think it worth mentioning this as well... [b]1:[/b] "Lack of Details"- I honestly re-watched the live stream like...5 times. No joke. I did this because I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing any bits of information or being confused about what I was hearing. And I have to say, while you guys did reveal quite a bit, you also created more questions as well in regards to the stuff you were trying to explain. I'll be making another post however to cover this since it goes hand in hand with an entirely other kettle of fish. [b]2:[/b] I'm not even going to prime this one with a title. Pretty sure most already know what the "big thing" is that I was talking about. The one thing you would think should have been counted among the list of positives. INFUSION... Now, to be totally fair, I think the system of Infusion is brilliant. Gotta give credit where credit is due. However, [b]IT IS TOTALLY COMPLETELY WASTED AS PRESENTED![/b] This new system being introduced SCREAMS Gear Ascension, and is obviously a re-imagined concept inspired by Etheric Light. And yet, despite that, I can't help but wonder WHY it doesn't also apply to all Year 1 content? And now I have to say "content" instead of Legendary because the Exotics are also being included in that as well. Allow me to elaborate. [b]MANY PLAYERS HAVE BEEN ADVOCATING FOR CONTINUED GEAR ASCENSION FOR ALL YEAR 1 LEGENDARY WEAPONS AND ARMOR FOR MONTHS[/b]. It is quite obviously a big deal for people. Now, I feel it worth mentioning that for said months, there were those either disagreeing or flatout trolling anyone on the forums who shared this opinion. Why? Because those people already did not care about the Legendary Weapons and Armor. They had already made the conscious decision that once TTK came out that they would be getting rid of their old gear. However, now that Year 1 Exotics are also in that same boat, NOW is magically important enough to have continued Gear Ascension. NOW its something worth complaining about or making petitions for all because it now impacts them. Why am I bringing this up? To illustrate a point. People don't like feeling as if they have wasted their time. The general consensus is that Year 1 was nothing more than a $100 Beta. You acquired data from the players and our feedback and then used that information to design TTK. And so everyone is under the impression that this means the game we got is going to be improving and getting better, right? Only problem there is that you really aren't improving so much as it seems you're just burying it in the sands of time to serve as nothing more than a far distant memory. Players spent hundreds of hours replaying the same content over and over again as intended, as designed with the emphasis being focused on acquiring new weapons and armor (Legendary and Exotic alike). When Dark Below came out and the vanilla Legendary Gear was given no option to upgrade, the masses gave an uproar, turned volatile and for many (myself included) outright quit the game. It wasn't until with House of Wolves and the introduction of Etheric Light that many of us came back to Destiny with the prospect of having value returned to our old gear that we worked hard for to get. But now with TTK, its the Dark Below all over again. As I have argued already in this post: https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/146511648/0/0 Those who are now feeling the sting from the Year 1 Exotics not being brought forward, you are NOW understanding how the rest of us feel. Now, turning my attention back to Bungie, I need you to understand that people have lives. And not in the sense of day to day activity. Your team doesn't have much experience when it comes to games like this, so let me explain an important point to you. When it comes to online games that are ongoing like this, people make the choice to commit themselves to it. Humans have finite life spans. It is the greatest motivation in our existence. Destiny is said to be a 10 year game, meaning you are basically asking every player here to give [b]10 YEARS[/b] of their life to you and your game. Any time spent playing this game is time that people are choosing to invest, time that could go to any number of other things. Their time, [b]THEIR LIFE ON THIS EARTH[/b], is a form of currency [b]MORE VALUABLE[/b] than any amount of money. People want something in exchange for their time, for the price they paid in more ways than one. They associate this more often than not with the rewards they acquired. The Vault of Glass. Crota's End. Trials of Osiris. Prison of Elders. Strikes. The Crucible. All these have rewards to be earned, goals that players consciously worked towards. Whether it be that Exotic they spent so long searching for or that Legendary they religiously played the Raids non-stop to find, the [b]PROOF OF INVESTMENT IS ATTACHED TO THE REWARDS[/b]. Making Year 1 Legendary and Exotic Weapons/Armor obsolete by not allowing them to be further ascended/infused disrespects that investment and insults their choice to play the game in the first place. Yes, "[i]Year 1 Gear will have a place in Year 1 content[/i]" [b]IS CONSIDERED AN INSULT[/b]. People didn't grind Vault of Glass to get gear so that they could just continue repeating that raid over and over again. No. They got these weapons and armors because they were looking to bring those things with them going forward into the future of the game. That is why it is called Time Investment. It is a natural, psychological aspect hardwired into every Human being. It becomes more prevalent in older people, though and starts to kick in around your 20s or 30s especially if you're the sort who works a full-time job and you, like so many others in the world, deal with an enormous amount of stress in your day to day life. In conclusion? The Infusion System should apply to everything. Its brilliant, the concept itself is beautiful. But as it stands now, it fails to realize its full potential to be what can actually DRIVE Destiny to go its full 10 years with all of us still playing it. Because if you give everyone the choice to build their characters the way they want to without said restrictions, not only will you improve the quality of your game but you will also ensure that their invested time is not only respected, but appreciated.

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  • Another bump for good points made.

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  • bump

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  • I didn't get to read it all, but I skimmed. I hope you mentioned the part about them bringing in the dude who basically his sole job is the cryptarch...as a straight kick in the deek to players who were screwed by him for months. Then they make light of the fact and laugh it off while trying to spin TTK.

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    • Bump. This needs to stay at the top.

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    • Bump again

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    • Bungie is regressing back to pre HoW grind

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    • Edited by spencerIVhire: 8/22/2015 4:18:19 PM
      well said I really hope they will listen . I would love to bring along old trusty to current levels . they are so worried about us not using the new stuff . If its better then we will use it . If it looks good and functions then I will use it but would love to have a old purple ( most exotics suck ) that I know works to my play style . I even said give us one from each slot to bring up to current levels .

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    • you sir understand time in a matter that is beyond most people comprehension

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    • Bump

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    • [quote][quote][b]Bungie Weekly Update - 12/04/2014[/b] by DeeJ “The last thing we wanted was for you to look at your favorite gun or helmet and decide that it had become obsolete. Since the reveal, we’ve read a lot of ideas for how this could have been done better. Your feedback is clear:[u][i] [b]The time you have invested in your stuff should be respected.”[/b] [/i][/u][/quote][/quote]

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    • Anyone that disputes this is an idiot.. Well said and to the point.

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    • Hi, remember me? Dont worry, Id understand if you dont hahaha. Anyway I'm on your side now. In one of your posts, I said that we should just accept how Bungie is because that's how businesses roll. But you're right. I didn't do VOG as a 29 again and again just to have my gear collect dust in my vault. Some say that the planned obsolescence may be because with all the new rebalancing, year one stuff may be out of place in year 2, but we paid for that crap and it would be great to have the option to keep them relevant. Also not ready to let go of my Fatebringer huhuhu.

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      • Bump.

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      • My time is very important to me and I feel like my time doesn't count for anything. I understand game progression, however, a 10 year old gun says reliability and durability.

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        • Bump

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        • Edited by NPeraAz: 8/21/2015 11:54:57 PM
          I've posted this a few times about a month after HOW release, but not recently. Bungie was simply up against the wall with a number of design mistakes in year one. They really didn't have another viable option than to leave certain things behind. Early design philosophy was pretty simple. They would have a content patch every few months, with a few levels added to each release. Each release would have more and more powerful weapons, with most of that power controlled by a single big stat that would take a step up each release. This way people would always have something to play for, the next level. At the end of the patch would be a raid, with the hardest content and best gear available. Since that content would be gotten late in the release cycle it would be artificially inflated, with all the little stats overpowered. This was so that elite raiders could viably use it for a while even though they received it near the end of the previous cycle. This philosophy was pretty standard for the MMO environment, and well understood. And it was proven broken almost immediately in Destiny. The main problem was that weapons affect play style drastically in FPS games. You have abilities, you have armor, you have gear. But ninety percent of the time it's the weapon, and only the weapon, that matters. Add onto this the fact that those minor stats... those were what changed the play style. Sure that big number could determine theoretical DPS numbers the most, and in many more mature MMO titles that would have been hugely important to the overall weapon desire. But that's just not how Destiny played out. It's probably not how any future FPS MMO will play out. So when players received these great guns at the end of VOG, they didn't want to get rid of them. It felt great, it didn't have the limits other guns did, it had the best options. It was overpowered, except for the main stat. And since weapons informed so much about the way you play an FPS... it was unkillable. The main draws of persistent worlds are fun gameplay and a consistent desire to upgrade. And Bungie lost the ability to temp you with a more powerful widget, because the stat that was more powerful was the one you didn't care about. They took far too long to realise this. They then tried to live with it, resulting in Etheric Light and rerolled weapons. But then they watched everyone upgrade Vison and Black Hammer. They watched people avoid the new content and just rerun old content over and over because that was where the broken stuff was. They watched broken items become "required" for invites. They had a few options. Overpower the new stuff and dial enemies to 11. Nerf. Or just finally put the foot down on the original design goals and move on. They really couldn't go with option number one because they hadn't left themselves room to grow. If no gun has kick or reload issues then you just start losing too much of the uniqueness. And enemies are probably already up against the wall of AI and other difficulty settings. Option number two is a bit more viable... but it was too late. They [i]maybe[/i] could have done it in HOW, but the fact is there was just a lot of content to touch. And at the same time they had to add new content. Most of the team is on Destiny 2. There was also a big team working on TTK. And HOW was late. Touching everything old at that time just wasn't reasonable. They tried a different approach (Etheric Light and Reroll) and it just didn't work. Well now you have even more content to rebalance, most of it getting older and older. Cutting out the mistakes and moving on is the only reasonable option they had. Now, by reasonable I mean game designer reasonable. It sucks for the way we want to play this game. But they just didn't have a way to keep that going, they made some wrong turns early on and they ran out of road long after they couldn't turn around anymore. [i]PS: And I really thought they were going the nerf route when they talked about weapon balance a month or so ago; but no? It's like they are doing option nerf simply for PvP and going with option move on for PvE. That I don't really understand (although to be fair I think option nerf will fail so...).[/i]

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          • It's been a while since I have posted on these forums or played Destiny. I got on the forums to see if Bungie was making up for all the BS they sold us in Year 1. As it is now, I'm as disappointed with TTK as I was with vanilla and the first two DLCs. I signed back onto the forums to say that I 100% agree with the OP. His post explains why I was more than ready to quit Destiny shortly after both of the previous DLCs. Finally I got another game to take me away from Destiny, and I love it. Games coming out in the next couple of months will keep me far from even considering going back to Destiny any time soon. Hopefully Bungie will get their s*** together and come out with something impressive in the next year or so, as they used to with the first Halo trilogy.

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            • honestly. i wish they would just add a good crafting system. where i can make the weapons i want. choosing between fire rate and impact. magazine size and stability. the rng grind is flat out a terrible. Out dated. Frustrating system. even with reforging its still rng. and still a grind. constantly finding myself stuck wearing armour i didnt want because its got the highest light value. or settling for decent perks instead of the ones i really want. seriously. what kind of futuristic gunsmith cant make the weapon i want. thats like the worst customer service ever. its like "hi id like a coke please." *gives pepsi. "sorry i asked for a coke" *gives rootbeer *k wtf i said coke" *gives water except in real life you dont pay for every single -blam!- up the restaurant makes.

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              • Out of all the posters on these forums you are one of the few I actually enjoy reading about. Not the negative"oh this game is the worst ever bungie ruins everything" swill I have to suffer through. But it also isn't the absolute worship of those that think bungie can do no wrong. Kudos To you!

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                • Edited by xlBooYahlx: 8/21/2015 5:06:08 PM
                  The way this expansion is wired is the only way for Bunghole to artificially inflate the hours played per player. Lord knows it's not gonna be by publishing creative content. Look at your friends list, and compare it to when the game launched and the following months. With each dlc that number had dropped drastically.

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                  • Most, if not all, of your positives are part of the 2.0 update.

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                    • First, thanks for taking the time to write this up. Second i am going to touch on the marks situation. I am glad they are universal, i am glad the weekly cap has been abandoned at least for this Expansion. But my biggest issue is 200 shared marks. Does that not seem extremely low to you? You are going to hit that cap over three characters pretty quick, forcing you to sign out, switch to the character you need to buy something for, then switching back. The cap is far too low, especially when between 3 characters we had 1200 possible marks, mind you my biggest issue is all the marks i currently have are going to be burned to the ground, sure i can spend them on armor or guns that will be useless in a month instead. In conclusion to this, Marks should come in a package much like Glimmer drops, So i can store them up and use them as needed with no worry of losing them because i am at the cap. I think this is an important change that needs to be made to them, it would alleviate alot of concerns people seem to have (including me) about the low cap. Next, Infusion. I am dissappointed with the way they did this, Not only does old weapons not count towards being able to be infused, you cannot use them to Infuse new weapons with more power. I think they should at the very least be able to do that. The whole of Infusion leaves a metric ton of questions. Like Exotics, do we have to use exotics to infuse exotics? Can we use any new weapons? Whats the max we can infuse to? Can we infuse Purples with white/green/blue? Can we infuse a legendary with an exotic? Too many questions left with Infusion, way too many, and i know that we will not get answers until it comes out which is very frustrating. Moving on to the Vault space. I said this once a few months ago, a simple paging system can be used to alleviate Vault space issues, they should have done it to begin with, but apparently nobody realized that until i started saying it. I guess they do at least read the forums. But the whole line about needing to get together with PS an XB is crap. I am personally offended that they had this "epiphany" so late, the space, moving things to kiosks, all should have been done originally, and had they done any research on the subject they might have figured this stuff out sooner. You cannot just "make a new style game" using old tired tropes without doing any research into them. This is pretty much all i have to rock on the subject at the moment.

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                      • I could go on for days about ascension but it's simple really. Let me make [b]my legend how I want my legend to be.[/b] [spoiler]Bump[/spoiler]

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                      • With Sols dead, does that make Malphisto the new leader of the Hive Mind? Asking for a friend...

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                        • Completely agree, all Raid, Trials, Iron Banner gear must stay relevant and useful in year 2, 3 and so on.

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                          • Bump

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