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Edited by SSG ACM: 9/2/2015 3:48:17 PM
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Wisdom v. Science and the Definition of Scientism?

I'm an advocate for strong scientism.

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I'm an advocate for weak scientism.

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TL; DR. I'm by no means scientific.

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“[i]I’m too scientific for religious superstition. Science is the only way of gaining knowledge of reality, and it tells us the physical world is all there is.[/i]" This claim is called scientism, the view that science is the paradigm of truth and rationality. There are two forms of scientism: strong and weak. [b]Strong scientism implies that something is true if and only if it is a scientific claim that has been successfully tested and used according to appropriate scientific methodology. [/b]Within this view, there are no truths apart from scientific "truths," and even if there were, there would be no reason to believe them. [b]Weak scientism allows for truths to exist [i]apart from science[/i] and grants them some minimal rational status without scientific support.[/b] For example, r[i]a[/i]pe is wrong, but you can't prove it; euthanasia is inhumane, but you can't prove it; N[i]a[/i]zis are corrupt, but you can't prove it; et cetera. The thinking causes drastic implications for studies like soteriology, eschatology, and theology. If strong scientism is true, then theology is not a cognitive enterprise at all, and there is no such thing as theological knowledge. If weak scientism is true, then the conversation between theology and science will at least be a cooperative and robust discussion between the sciences. [u]How do we determine which is actually best?[/u] Note first that [b]strong scientism is self-refuting[/b]. Strong scientism is not itself a proposition of science but a proposition of philosophy about science to the effect that only scientific propositions are true and/or rational. It assumes the mentality that only if something is scientifically proven, it is true, [b]which allows the toleration of anything [/b]unless you can "scientifically" prove that it's unethical (like abortion, homosexuality, transgenders, "sorcery," etc). Strong scientism does not adequately allow for the task of stating and defending the necessary presuppositions for the coexistence of ethics and science to be practiced; thus, strong scientism shows itself to be a foe and not a friend of either ethics or science. With regards to all of scientism, [b]it has many assumptions.[/b] Each has been challenged, and the task of stating and defending these assumptions ends up becoming a philosophical debate or an unorganized argument since the conclusions of science cannot be more certain than the presuppositions it rests upon and the acclaimed reliability of its uses to reach those conclusions, no matter the human dishonesty and random error. However, there are true, rational beliefs in fields outside science whether we seek to prove them or not. Strong scientism does not allow for this fact since it relies on the tangible and physical evidence as fact and foremost than any acclaimed spiritual "truth" even though [b]it is more adequately exhibited for humans to be obligated to those claims outside science[/b] (e.g., "Torturing babies is wrong," "I am now thinking about science," etc.) are better justified than some believed within science (e.g., "Evolution takes place through a series of very small steps"). The real question is "Why do humans even care?" which is one of the most determining thoughts that distinguishes man from animal: [b]For some reason, we care about these unwritten truths entitled ethics.[/b]

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  • [b] [/b]

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  • A lot of what you pointed out were moral dilemmas that have nothing to do with the scientific method. I also don't think this whole "scientism" is a thing. Not sure what you wanted to prove here.

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    scient ism lol wat? That's -blam!-ing redundant.

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    • What if you just know what you know?

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      • Scientism is not even a real thing, you're just creating a fictional concept in order to cause chaos among the atheist group of this forum to prove something. I don't care what that thing is, and I don't care if you continue to do this. I would call it payback, against us.

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      • Edited by SSG ACM: 7/19/2015 2:58:02 AM
        LOL@THAT. The only people who actually read this voted for weak scientism. Some of you people just voted strong scientism because it sounds bad ass when it actually makes you appear like a heartless person. O_O

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        • Religious people think it's the best argument ever to shout "scientism" at atheists, even though literally no one subscribes to that ideology anyway. If you're intelligent enough to appreciate science, you're probably also aware of the limits and capabilities of it. Subjectivity is infinitely a part of all humans. That isn't to say that science and math aren't are best tools to discover information, just that they have limits. Science is still a hell of a lot more effective than deluding yourself with pseudo-schizophrenia and talking to an imaginary, invisible man in your head about what actually exists in the universe.

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          • Edited by BenjyX55: 7/30/2015 12:20:35 AM
            Science has nothing to do with morality. Science is an attempt to understand the natural world. Morality is an attempt to understand the concepts of right and wrong, which are inventions of mankind.

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            • Science isn't supposed to make you feel good, it doesn't deal with our social concepts. There is no objective morality because people have different ideals and cultures. If you want to talk about philosophy, that is fine, but it's not an empirical science. You can't ask people to put science on an even playing field with studies like philosophy or theology, because they do not connect in any real way. It's a false equivalence.

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              • Science cant answer everything and probably never will.

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                • Yeah this is shit

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                  • Edited by Mad Max: 7/30/2015 12:30:41 AM
                    Please just...don't. You, of all people, shouldn't be talking about science.

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                  • Edited by Insomniatron: 7/30/2015 12:29:33 AM
                    Truth and morality aren't the same thing. R.ape being wrong can never be proven objectively true. You're trying to diminish science by saying that truths exist outside of science, but you're only providing subjective beliefs and morals. What's a truth found outside of science that isn't a moral standpoint? Science is a tool for determining objective truths. These can be proved to anyone, as long as they understand the terms being used. Science can provide us with more information that can further inform our moral decisions and preferences. Science can prove how far it is to the Sun, how long a day is, and how hot it gets, but not that the Sun is pretty or inspiring or that summer is more fun than winter.

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                  • Nice.

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                  • You do realize that concepts like "right and wrong" are, well, conceptual? You can't "prove" a concept because it doesn't exist; it's abstract. Something like -blam!- being bad is subjective and can't be proven but we can use the negative mental affects of the victim to tell that it's bad. God, on the other hand, isn't considered to be a concept by believers but rather as a metaphysical being. He can't be proven nor disproven and objective evidence can't exist for him so why believe in him?

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                    • When did wisdom have anything to do with religion?

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                      • Wisdom is above all

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                      • That was long and pointless.

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                      • Wtf is this drivel?

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                        • Edited by DarthBrando: 7/19/2015 11:46:21 AM
                          Science and religion are in no means mutually exclusive to each other, the only time they are; Is if you take a religion's metaphorical explanation of a certain event as historical fact which is NOT what religion is for. Religion provides these; A set of morales, memes an philosophy to live by, a faith system based on a form of a power greater than humanity/ beyond your control, an explanation and hope for what happens to ones sole after their existence in this realm/plane of existence, life comes to an end. The ONLY time they are at odds is when you take a metaphorical religious passage as pure historical FACT Example; God made the earth in 7 days according to book of genesis in the king james bible Firstly the original holy bible is written in LATIN (if you are roman catholic/ christian) Hebrew if you are jewish In the original languages it is worded differently an those words give different meaning to the fact taken out of context Secondly it could very well be a metaphor a day for god could be a million years for man ect... Thirdly the facts and trivia and metaphors are not the crucial all important factors of a religion, that role is cast to the belief system and morales of said religion and the stories tales eda an poems in the religion are to reinforce and provide an example of that belief system and morales put into a context that any one can relate to. Fourthly when you get large factions of people focusing more on the trivia, facts, history, and metaphors and believing them as facts and having actually have happened 100% of the time you end up with a CULT that does bad things, examples; The witch hunts The holocaust Heavens gate Scientology I could go on but i think those examples work just fine.

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                          • You're referring to objective and subjective and labeling it differently. Why?

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                          • ...

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                          • You don't have to be the -blam!-ing smartest person on the planet to be an atheist. Atheism has almost nothing to do with science outside of the use of it to back up arguments.

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                            • TL;DR?

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                              • So many religious shit posts from this guy. And you wonder why we hate Christians.

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