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originally posted in: Did Jaren Ward become Dredgen Yor?
Edited by Helio Skitzer: 4/17/2015 2:22:00 PM
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I contend they are 2 separate individuals. Jaren died in the woods and his ghost escaped, taking TLW in transmat form to Shin, Jaren's student. This battle is the last time we see Jaren and is presumably when he dies/disappears. So why is it that we hear 2 separate guns, 1 definitely TLW, the other, being a wicked sounding weapon, presumably being Thorn. Thus, considering the timing, it would be impossible for TLW to be "the rose" that preceeded Thorn. The fact that Shin supposedly confronts and kills Yor with Jaren's last words phrase confirms that these are 2 distinct weapond. Additionally, if the two guns are 2 separate weapons, why would Jaren be using both weapons? And one final point, if this was when Jaren converted to the darkness, why would he let his ghost go free with TLW? A ghost that knows all about him and a weapon that is clearly powerful. Just letting these go would be a tremendous risk for him. The more likely scenario would be Yor either corrupts or destroys his own ghost. So, I say again, Yor killed Ward in the forest. Wards ghost, likely unable to revive Ward due to Thorn or simply because Yor would destroy it when it tried, transmatted TLW and fled to Shin so that Shin, Wards student, could take up his mantle. Wards body was never recovered due to the risk of recovering it and the apparent lack of value of recovering bodies in this day and age (think the titan over by the temple of crota). Edit. Also, Yor indicates that he called his weapon the rose because of the bloom when he fired it, but when it was not being shot, it was only jagged thorns. This also indicates thorn and TLW were different weapons, as TLW doesn't have any jagged edges.
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  • Dedgen yor had a conversation with his ghost. I imagine Jarren died and was revived by his ghost, or just transformed into Dredgen and then after that talked to his ghost and told him to gtfo. Think. The thorn and last word cards are listed in the grimoire as Thorn 1 TLW1 TLW 2 Thorn 2 Thorn 3 TLW 3. (I think that's the order) Because it's a narrative of the 1 person that is Jarren ward/ Dredgen Yor

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  • Thorn 3 is almost indisputable proof Yor and Ward are 2 separate individuals. In whatever TLW/other card that talks about Jaren leading a group of survivors (including the narrator who said he was the next wielder of TLW, presumably Shin Malphur), the card ends with "shin" being scanned by Wards ghost (where the ghost has abandoned Ward). This card is important for 2 reasons, it indicates Ward still had his ghost at this time, and Wards ghost left him on Earth (where palomon was located). This is important because the latest Thorn card, which is a conversation between Yor and his ghost where Yor abandoned his ghost, indicates Yor abandoned his ghost on an entirely different planet. Yor says something to the effect of "if you don't leave me, I'll kill you and leave your shell in the [b]dust of this dull, red world.[/b] This means that Yor left his ghost all the way out on Mars (which makes sense considering we also find Pahanin's weapon, SGA, on mars and Yor is known to have murdered Pahanin). Yor and Wards ghosts left them on completely different worlds, making it impossible for the ghost that came to Shin to be Yor's (and thus meaning you cannot be ward).

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  • This^ I dont see how anybody thinks TLW is Rose, its not.

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  • Well, this is kind of old, but another tidbit to add is in the new thorn grimoire card transcribing yor's last conversation with his ghost, he mentions that if the ghost won't leave him, he'd kill it and leave its empty shell in the barren red wastes, aka on mars. However, Jaren Ward's ghost comes to Shin malphur/whoever that guy is narrating the story on Earth, so that almost conclusively disproves that Jaren is yor and parted with his ghost on earth. Yor left his ghost on Mars in a completely separate event. Ward's ghost left him after ward was killed on earth.

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