JavaScript is required to use Bungie.net

#feedback

Edited by Elspeth: 3/13/2015 8:17:02 PM
97

The case against OHKOs

The ability to one shot another player in any competitive game is a controversial topic for obvious reasons. The developers of FPS game Brink, Splash Damage, even went on record to say something to the effect of “OHKOs are detrimental to fun, because while one player might be having a great time, many other players must suffer.” Brink did go on to fail for reasons I’m not going to get into, but that one quote has great relevancy to Destiny today. OHKOs are not fun for the victim; that is a simple truth. The reason why any competitive game is fun in the first place is because there is an exchange, a bank and forth, where the victor isn't determined until the final blow is landed. Where sometimes, that final, clutch headshot brings home the win against overwhelming odds. Remember during Evo when Daigo parried every single hit during Justin Wong's stage 3 super, counter-hadouken'd and -blam!-ing won with 1 HP left? That is the essence of competition. OHKOs, by definition, are opposed to the concept of “the exciting exchange.” The entire exchange was determined before it began by virtue of alpha. OHKOs can make the victim feel helpless, and can make combat more frustrating than necessary. OHKOs aren’t fun, and games are supposed to be fun. So, should OHKOs exist at all? Yes, as a reward for a difficult, skillful feat, most prominently, the sniper rifle headshot. And even then, other weapons must be balanced relative to sniper rifles. If the baseline TTK in a game is 2,000 ms, nothing should be able to OHKO. The problem with Destiny is that many weapons, namely shotguns and fusion rifles, are capable of OHKOs and are not remotely balanced relative to other weapons. The very fact that crucible is constantly plagued by players using nothing else but shotguns and fusion rifles, and actually doing well, is proof of this. Let’s compare Destiny to another FPS game that had fairly balanced infantry combat, Battlefield 3. From now on, I will also refer to shotguns and fusion rifles as just shotguns in interests of brevity. Shotguns were mostly well balanced in BF3. Shotguns were capable at their intended role and offered a high risk, high reward play style rewarding competency and fast reflexes. This is pretty much the exact opposite of Destiny shotguns. [i]“If what you are saying was true, then why did I never see anybody using shotguns when I was playing Battlefield 3?”[/i] First, let me ask you this: “Have you played any of the later CQC infantry maps?” Because shotguns were everywhere, were effective and were tons of fun.” But more seriously, that’s a good question, and there are many reasons. First, in BF3, players were only permitted one primary weapon. If a player wanted an advantage in CQC and opted for a shotgun, it was at expense of all ranged capabilities. This is not a trivial decision as most maps in BF3 catered to longer range engagement distances. Logically, it only makes sense that shotguns were rare sights. Destiny is the opposite. Destiny maps are mostly cramped arenas with narrow hallways and endless obstructions overwhelmingly catering toward short range engagements, where shotguns have advantage. Furthermore, Destiny permits multiple primary weapons, so even if you are forced into a longer range engagement, you still have another, perfectly good primary weapon to use. There are simply no disadvantages to using a shotgun in Destiny at all. [i]“Using a shotgun requires you get close to your target, easily countered by map awareness and maintaining distance; you don’t understand high risk, high reward play styles.”[/i] Wrong. Shotguns in BF3 offered high reward, high risk play style because the baseline TTK in BF3 was already only ~350 - 400 ms. Sans OHKOs, which in BF3 were nowhere as reliable as in Destiny, the baseline TTK for shotguns was ~225 ms, only ~150 ms advantage. Shotguns in BF3 offered a moderate TTK advantage that required clever pathing and juking to take advantage of. On the complete opposite side of the spectrum, Destiny’s shotguns reliably OHKO from surprisingly far distances, and the baseline TTK for other weapons is a HUGE ~900 ms. Purely by the numbers, shotguns in Destiny deliver an overwhelming advantage. Even the best players will struggle to overcome a 900 ms deficit. As for the map awareness and maintaining distance? Destiny offers players incredible mobility. Half the classes can practically fly, two can teleport, another can stealth and everybody can slide like a rocket. Combine these extreme mobility options with claustrophic arenas tailored to CQC engagements, and avoiding an instagib becomes less awareness and more luck. As a result of long TTKs combined with high mobility and shotgunners can tank enough incoming damage to cross remarkable distances to land their OHKO. That's before taking into consideration abilities that can partially negate damage like sliding and blinking. The weapon is an extension of the warrior, and in this case, it means shotguns can have effective ranges of 15 m+. Destiny shotguns don’t offer advantages, they serve up an all you can eat buffet of easy mode kills. But let’s take this to the next step: due to damage degradation and simply missing more at longer ranges, thereby increasing the already fairly long TTK, combined with cluttered maps and high mobility options, it is very easy to disengage from a longer range firefight that has gone south, allowing you to reset the engagement. No such mercy exists for the victim of a CQC instagib, further stacking the game in favour of shotguns. [i]“If I shot you with a shotgun in real life, you would die instantly. Shotguns are supposed to be powerful.”[/i] This is not real life, this is a game. Balance > *. [i]“You have bias.”[/i] Absolutely. My bias is this: I strongly believe a well balanced game is the most fun game. I don’t care that balancing an overpowered weapon negatively impacts your fun or even my own fun. I care that the game is balanced, because then everybody can have fun. Right now, Bungie’s efforts at balance have been a rollercoaster or well-intentioned turds. I don’t use shotguns, but that’s because my play style is focused more on midrange combat in the first place, and players opting for longer range combat are often severely disadvantaged due to map design, mobility options, limited flanking options and the TTK abyss. I do use sniper rifles fairly often, and here’s the thing: I don’t think Destiny’s sniper rifles are balanced either. The best sniper rifles ( Purple Revenge, Patience & Time ), settle a little too quickly, permitting follow up shots a little too rapidly, but the problems with sniper rifles pale in comparison to the problems with shotguns. In fact, just in general, it blows my mind that Bungie would claim to be so concerned about crucible balance, establish a baseline TTK, then throw in a billion weapons that severely undermine that TTK baseline. Why even have a TTK baseline in the first place then? You’ve clearly made a hash of it all. [i]“You can equip a shotgun and be overpowered like everybody else.”[/i] Just because everybody can use a certain item doesn’t make that item balanced. Accessibility is never equal to balance, otherwise, all players would be restricted to a handful of good builds, killing the game’s meta, and ultimately, killing the game. This is a concept Bungie understands. The original intention behind the 1.1.1 balance pass was to broaden the game’s meta by increasing the number of viable weapon choices. Unfortunately, Bungie, as usual, -blam!-ed it up, nerfed autorifles too hard and didn’t nerf shotguns enough. But the bottom line stands: Destiny is not going to be the Clone Wars because nobody wants to fight the Clone Wars. Furthermore, a well balanced game will enable multiple playstyles, with all playstyles being comparably and reasonably successful; a healthy meta. Destiny's current balance greatly favours aggressive, short range combat to the detriment of more balanced and / or longer ranged playstyles. Essentially, because Bungie can't properly balance their game, they have ended up telling us how to play their game when we should be able to choose what is best for ourselves. [i]“How should shotguns be balanced then?”[/i] Any combination of the following: General spread increase to limit range. Spread penalties during and immediately following sliding or jumping. This makes sense not because in real life weapons can’t be used while sliding or jumping, but because all other weapons have accuracy penalties already. OHKO ability removed from shotguns sans a very close range headshot. Shotgun baseline TTK should be ~500 - 550 ms, which will still provide an advantage against the baseline TTK offered by most primary weapons. Magazine sizes and rates of fire adjusted to compensate. This is my favourite, and probably best: Equipping a special weapon penalizes agility, with agility values capable of going negative with the intention of limiting mobility options when using a special weapon ( can only slide half as far, etc. ), thereby emphasizing clever tactics over sheer killing power. Maybe -4 agility with a sniper rifle, -8 agility with a fusion rifle and -12 agility with a shotgun. Spread penalty immediately after switching to a shotgun or fusion rifle, or 1.25 ( sniper rifles ) - 2.5 s. ( shotguns ) switch time to prevent weapon swap cheesing. [i]"Why?"[/i] Because Destiny can be better, otherwise, it's just a race to the bottom. Honestly, it feels like Bungie just dropped a new traversal system into Halo's gunplay without considering how that would alter weapon balance. Thanks in advance for reading. Comment to keep this bumped and relevant, and then, Bungie might care. Also, please don't nitpick too must; I've already cut additional arguments to make the character limit.

Posting in language:

 

Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

  • The Golden Gun was hands down the most popular weapon in Goldeneye 007 The Sniper rifle is quite possibly the most popular weapon to enter shooter games. That's one hit kill. Multiple Weapons in the Halo and COD franchises have been one hit kill weapons, Elite Swords being so popular that Bungie made more on Merchandise sales than they did on Halo 2.... Do you see where I'm going with this? These weapons actually do make the game more fun. You're convinced they don't even out the playing field, you're seriously wrong. There's 15 000 dead guardians that tell me that it does take skill with a shotgun, or I'd be the one who died in those encounters, because just as many had them too. Ignoring bragging, you're trying to unbalance it further. People who aren't amazing at PvP? SHould still be able to get kills, that's only fair. When they end up in a game where they are severely outclassed in level, abilities, and general playtime, they're going to need something keeping them playing. It's okay to die in PvP, it's part of the game. Yes there's going to be level 6's that shotgun you dead, it's because they're using a SHOTGUN, fantasy or not, you can't ignore the basic idea of one. The range limit on shotguns is already at a fantasy level balance, I can assure you, shotguns kill targets at much, much further away. So your fantasy balance already exists. It seemed like an fair argument until you only bashed shotguns. Maybe if you would have mentioned Fusion Rifles, Thorn, or TLW being imbalanced, you'd have credibility to this, but you didn't. You seem to only have a problem with shotguns. No matter how many pretty words you try to fill this room up with, we still only hear one thing. I hate shotguns. Don't go charging in like a fool then

    Posting in language:

     

    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

    9 Replies
    • Edited by Elspeth: 3/24/2015 5:02:47 PM
      Now that another Iron Banner has come and gone, I'd say it's time to come back to this topic, so self-bump. Kinda planned to keeping this a recurring topic anyway. The number of times I've had other players attempt to rush me down in a straight line, shotgun in hand, from maybe 25 - 30 m away is patently retarded. Frequently, they're free kills, but sometimes they'll get me, especially if I'm even slightly distracted. The very fact that those players are willing to commit to such stupid, suicidal "tactics," with the expectation that their overpowered boomstick will see them through means that it's successful enough to continue to be worth using. Can't really blame them for that, because if it works, it isn't stupid; can only blame the game itself when the only weapons that can effectively counter these "tactics" are limited to Mythoclast, Last Word, a lucky Hawkmoon pair, Thorn ( postmortem ) and Praedyth's Timepiece. It's a deep shame to any game to encourage such stupidity, yet here it continues to flourish. The best way to balance shotguns is to probably limit their effectiveness to tight, CQC corridors, accomplished by reducing player mobility when a shotgun is held, preventing those players from effectively pursuing other players.

      Posting in language:

       

      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

    • I agree with you. There is a great imbalance within the weapons for pve they should have a look at.

      Posting in language:

       

      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

    • Edited by Elspeth: 3/13/2015 5:57:52 PM
      So how does limiting mobility work? Time for some fuzzy maths that coincidentally also proves why shotguns are OP. If you can blink 10 u., sprint 12 u. / s., your shotgun can OHKO at 8 u., and it takes 1.1 s. of sustained fire to kill you, you can theoritically defeat opponents at 30 u. Sprint 12 u., blink for another 10 u., then deliver the coup de grace at 8 u. for a combined 30 u. all while under fire from an opponent with 100% accuracy. In nearly all maps, about 90% of the map is within 30 u. of major cover which therefore means 90% of nearly all maps are shotgun territory. Very obviously broken and poorly designed. If mobility is halved, you can now only cover 12 u., and therefore can only OHKO at 20 u., the shotgun itself isn't touched, but the effective range reduced. A player you would easily have killed at 22 u. will now probably kill you. Shotgun territory is significantly reduced on all maps, creating more room for other weapons to shine. Shotguns will still be great at CQC, but now they'll be significantly worse at everything else, unlike now where shotguns are practically general purpose weapons. Design oversights are made right and better balance is achieved. Angels cry tears of joy.

      Posting in language:

       

      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

    • Agree. Would be good changes.

      Posting in language:

       

      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

      1 Reply
      • the problem isn't OHKO's, those are fun, and they reward people....when special ammo isn't available 24/7. So I think if special ammo were limited it would alleviate SO many complaints about fusion rifles and shotguns and make using them much more skilled because it takes skill to hold down a heavy crate, so it would take enormous teamwork and skill to hold down a special crate, if special functioned like heavy i.e. limited spawns in a game

        Posting in language:

         

        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

      • Tldr

        Posting in language:

         

        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

      • That's a lot of words...I'm assuming it's Fanfiction?

        Posting in language:

         

        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

      • I read til about halfway and this is just too long However what I did read was absolutely great you hit the nail on the head! Your reasoning is fantastic, you should copy this and print it out and send it to Bungie.

        Posting in language:

         

        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

        1 Reply
        • Personally I think its the maps that are unbalanced. Even if you remove shotguns and FR from them you're still fighting at so close a range its not fun to use your long or even mid range primaries. They need to make their pvp maps like their pve maps and then the problem will fix itself. It was never a matter of unbalanced weapons only poorly designed maps.

          Posting in language:

           

          Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

          1 Reply
          • If you want the game to be balanced then they need to have one gun in the game. 2 guns that are different in every way should not kill the same. QUIT YOUR BITCHIN

            Posting in language:

             

            Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

            5 Replies
            • TL:DR

              Posting in language:

               

              Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

            • Well written and argued! I hope Deej gets this message to developers!

              Posting in language:

               

              Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

              1 Reply
              • I dont agree with everything But i like the amount of support to your argument sit rather than just screaming NERF NOW

                Posting in language:

                 

                Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                1 Reply
                • Best PVP analysis I have read on these forums or reddit. Very accurate. Bump

                  Posting in language:

                   

                  Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                  1 Reply
                  • Came for the discussion. Stayed for the daigo parry reference.

                    Posting in language:

                     

                    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                    1 Reply
                    • Sniper headshots, point blank shotgun blasts, and fusion rifle bursts out to 5 yards, should be the only OHKO in game with the current special ammo drop rate and map sizes. Otherwise, they can keep them as is... so long as they reduce special ammo spawn to twice the amount of heavy ammo spawn, so that special weapons become more situational vs primary replacements. This way, if you want to run a shotgun as a primary? Go grab universal remote.... You want to run a sniper as primary? Go grab no land beyond.... Fusion rifle primary? Grab a vex.

                      Posting in language:

                       

                      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                    • Whats an OHKO

                      Posting in language:

                       

                      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                      2 Replies
                      • AR's should be able to counter shottys. They need to make that constant steam of fire mean something in CQC. It's kind of a joke how even large caliber rounds don't interefere with players aim or ability to charge through and get right on you. Getting hit with an AR in CQC should mean something vs. a shotgun user.

                        Posting in language:

                         

                        Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                        3 Replies
                        • They need to add a damage ramp to close quarters with other guns. The reason everyone hates shotguns is cause people can practically walk up on you as you shoot them in the face and blast you with their shotty, your dead. The closer they get to you the more damage ur gun should deal, thus making shotguns an ambush weapon not a rush through your opponents bullets weapon.

                          Posting in language:

                           

                          Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                          5 Replies
                          • Edited by BarnicleBarn: 3/7/2015 12:47:12 AM
                            This is long and we'll thought out, so koodos. That said, I disagree with you though from the first line. You're entire thesis, is based on the premise that the exchange begins when the first shot is fired. In fact on Destiny, the exchange begins when you see the red bar of the enemy on your radar, or spot their toon in the distance and begin manouvering towards them. It's about map placemenr, reading their position, ambushing them or being ambushed. Sure OHK weapons can be abused but a skilled user will always win out over an unskilled one with the last clutch headshot being the first time someone pulls the trigger, but the exchange itself began before that....long before that when they began to engage.

                            Posting in language:

                             

                            Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                            2 Replies
                            • If you dedicated this much energy to learning how to [i]counter[/i] shotguns rather than [i]whining[/i] about them, you'd probably have more fun playing.

                              Posting in language:

                               

                              Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                              26 Replies
                              • For one you can not compare destiny to bf3 because of different damage models and map size and for two in bf3 each person had 100 health and in destiny players have over 100

                                Posting in language:

                                 

                                Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                                1 Reply
                                • One: holy hell you fail at debate. I mean, let's get that out there. The best argument is clear and concise. Two: I can't do it but respect it. You're a crybaby. Plain and simple. You got beat and whine about it. When I get beat I find a way back. Absorb what that means and it may change your life.

                                  Posting in language:

                                   

                                  Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                                  1 Reply
                                  • Did anyone read the entire thing?

                                    Posting in language:

                                     

                                    Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                                    1 Reply
                                    • Then what's the point of running a special weapon.

                                      Posting in language:

                                       

                                      Play nice. Take a minute to review our Code of Conduct before submitting your post. Cancel Edit Create Fireteam Post

                                      1 Reply
                                      You are not allowed to view this content.
                                      ;
                                      preload icon
                                      preload icon
                                      preload icon