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originally posted in:Secular Sevens
12/17/2013 9:40:56 PM
109

Can pure capitalism exist without exploiting the poor?

All the talk of raising minimum wage has got me thinking. While, personally, I don't believe that fast food workers should be making $15/hr, I do believe that working full time at minimum wage job should at least put a roof over your head, clothes on your back, and food on your table. The minimum wage should be increasing at the same rate as the cost of living. The US federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr, which was last adjusted in 2009 - nearly 5 years ago. People working minimum wage jobs [i]need[/i] those cost of living adjustments. Letting the free market determine what something is worth is a basic principle of capitalism, yes? If the free market decides that someone flipping burgers is worth $3/hr, that person is screwed. The unfortunate part of this situation is that $3/hr is better than $0/hr, even if $3 wont buy you shit, so people will take those jobs. Capitalism is inherently emotionless. At what point does one put aside their capitalistic intentions and exhibit compassion in taking care of their workers?

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  • No. [i]Pure[/i] capitalism requires that poverty exists. I wouldn't necessarily call it an exploit, it's just part of the system. For a capitalist system to work properly, there must be winners and losers. Ideally, class differences are determined by work ethic. Unfortunately, this is not always the case.

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  • Edited by kj2177: 11/8/2014 6:58:57 AM
    free market capitalism would minimize exploitation of the poor in my opinion. as long as their are people involved in any system their will be exploitation. and you have to remember what minimum wage jobs are. should the high schooler with an after school job living in his parents house be making what his/her father is at a full time job? maybe, maybe not. but these jobs were not designed to support a person's livelihood. unfortunate, but if minimum wage was raised to $15/hour tomorrow the economy would take a nosedive.

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  • PURE capitalism? No, absolutely not. It lends itself sooner or later to an emerging aristocracy. But capitalism with some caveats? Sure, I think so.

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  • Also, capitalism isn't inherently emotionless, but being competitive, it rewards people who are. High functioning sociopaths are generally much more likely to succeed in a capitalist state than anyone else, which leads to further exploitation and the basic self interest business model you see in large corporations these days. Why do corporations exploit people? Because the people in charge aren't mentally capable of caring about another other individuals. This generally applies to all money systems, however. Note how the communists and socialists still had money systems and a small group that exploited that. That always comes down to human power structure tendencies. Alpha, or adopted alpha personalities, are just not capable of empathy and always seek power. The only situations in our species, or similar species, in which this doesn't happen is when the dominant alpha personalities are completely removed, and the only people who can then take up leadership are (usually female) empathetic and intelligent individuals that lead to more pro-individual social structures.

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  • This thread still going on? I thought the general consensus was "no."

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  • Edited by SoggyDiapers: 7/31/2014 5:12:35 AM
    Fast food workers definitely do not deserve $15 /hr. The only that will do is drive prices across the bored. Its always relative. Minimum wage was never designed to provide a roof. Adults who are earning minimum wage often lack the skills to work in a better field. Capitalism is about opportunity to make a better life by busting your butt and earning (trust fund kids are a different story). Want a better job, get an education or you will be left behind. With that said, the disparity between rich and poor will always be prevalent in any type of system. Even in socialist countries there is a disparity between rich and poor. Socialism basically just removes the middle class, and you are left with rich and poor. This has happened since the beginning of society. It is caused by human nature and will never change. No matter how you "spread" the wealth someone will find a way to exploit people for money. There was a study on this not to long ago which showed a natural curve that occurs in all societies. There is some issues with tax breaks and i believe these are what harm societies the most. Corporate tax breaks i think should be given to those that dont produce in other countries just because their corporate hq is within the states. I would like to see tax breaks for companies that keep at least 65% of their business within the country. I also believe companies should be given incentive to pay higher wages, provide healthcare(not forced), and help with retirement of its workers. Pensions and 401k matching needs to come back. Companies have gotten very greedy and no longer care for those who helped build their business. This is why there is no company loyalty anymore. They dont care about you, why should you care about them? Now on individual taxing, this is what needs to change the most. The tax ceiling needs to go. Being taxed on only $200k is bs. It only harms the poor. You should be taxed on all income no matter how much you make. Made $8 million, get taxed on $8 million. The super rich hardly get taxed and it creates issues in which there is not enough tax money to properly allocate funds to other projects, like the education system. Sorry for the rant, i too have thought quite a bit on this.

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    • Edited by DarkRain334: 12/18/2013 9:44:15 PM
      Capitalism is about the privatization of production where trade is controlled by the private sector, and the free market regulation of basic commerce. It's beyond stupid if you think an economic system is emotionless. It's a simply a system in which things work, and it's the most effective system to maximize a countries economic potential. Yeah, people have to make profits, but that doesn't mean you have to step on the poor to do it. A capitalist system is the only one where you have a chance of coming from the bottom class to the upper class, and the market will let you do that. And who says workers aren't taken care of? You need to get off the computer and experience the real world. Workers are offered many benefits in practice and theory doesn't even claim you shouldn't give workers some compensation. And no one who can get a higher paying job will work a $3/hr job. That's why kids enter the job market with low paying jobs. Obviously they don't intend to work those jobs for the rest of their life. The only people who will get those jobs are people who are desperate or entry level workers, so the notion that these jobs won't be passed up for others is beyond stupid. It's pretty obvious you don't know how capitalism or people work. Pick up an econ book or something.

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      • The only way capitalism doesn't exploit people is if it is regulated to within an inch of its life. And it isn't, not in the US, or in many countries at all.

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        • Nope.

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        • ITT: People seriously need to pick up an economics book

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        • Yes.

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        • Yes it can. By using automation to eliminate unskilled labour positions!

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          • Also, OP you don't realize how much better off people are today even at minimum wage. You act like they can't even eat and that's hardly true. Is their life easy? No. But it's better than most people around the world

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          • Raising minimum wage is a horrible idea anyway. Until the dollar becomes worth more, it won't help. Because the dollar continuously falls in worth. But the only way to fix that, is to screw people over in the process, which a lot of people aren't ok with.

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          • No economic system on the planet can accomplish what you criticize capitalism for.

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          • Edited by Xboxdotcom: 7/31/2014 2:22:52 AM
            lol America isn't even capitalist

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            • Read Grapes of Wrath. Unless you have already, in which case you should reread it. Then think, of the orange farmers and the winners and family as losers. It sucks, because you know the family so well. In essence, capitalism pushes that notion. Anyone, however can be a winner, don't feed me that bullshit about set classes and how 99% of wealth is controlled by 1% because that's not the problem. The problem is that everyone is too good for their job and don't want build a career. I don't need a -blam!-ing million dollars. It would be sweet...so sweet, but I can support my family with 43k a year comfortably in the city we live in now. I'm 25, so I've got plenty of room for economic growth, on top, of the fact that my wife finished her degree and will be working soon. If she brings in another 20k a year, which is low, but it's more than the girls and boys who whine and quit their jobs. 64k a year, living in the same, house with both cars paid off and balanced credit bills. That's middle class winning. That's capitalism: competition and the drive to win.

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              • 0
                yes. i have an example an economy with two people starting with equal money and property #iwin

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              • Edited by M37h3w3: 8/1/2014 2:33:38 AM
                Can I also point out that while everyone balks at increasing minimum wage worker raises, CEO pay has grown exponentially while everyone else's wages have largely remained stagnate? And it's apparently not even tied into CEO performance as the scatter graph between performance and pay looks like a shotgun blast at 70 yards. [quote]While, personally, I don't believe that fast food workers should be making $15/hr, I do believe that working full time at minimum wage job should at least put a roof over your head, clothes on your back, and food on your table.[/quote] Even if it takes 15/hr to cover the basic necessities and still leave enough room to chase a higher education?

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              • Communism is a dream.

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                • Always look to the Swanson pyramid of greatness

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                  • How can pure capitalism be real if our eyes aren't real?

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                    • No. Pure Capitalism is pretty much what we have now sans the benefits such as workman's comp, 8 hour work day, vacation time, safe workplace, no child labor, labor laws, etc. These luxuries that companies and employers have to provide to their employees were socialistic policies that were fought for in the late 1800's to the 1930's by working class citizens, and often, they were bloody encounters. Before those happened, companies could easily manipulate and control who works under them without any repercussions or care of what happened to the workers. It wasn't until many strikes and massacres later that these provisions for the working class citizen were put into place. Pure Capitalism CANNOT and will NEVER exist without exploiting the poor and working class citizens.

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                      • Currency was the worst invention by the human race.

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                        • Yes. It would require the human race to stop being a collective pile of asshats, however.

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                          • The issue with minimum wage is that 7.25 means entirely different things depending on where you live in the country. In my city, Dayton, OH, I could afford an apartment and food, if I roomed with other people. In NYC, I'd be screwed without a hope. To answer your question, there really is no line. People aren't coordinated enough to put pressure of manufacturers or service providers unless an executive makes a negative comment about gays, gun legislation, or women's rights.

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