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originally posted in:Secular Sevens
Edited by Butters:
9/16/2013 7:37:23 AM
32
We wouldn't be where we are if it weren't for religion (seeing how up until recently most scientists were of religion and based their research on "better understanding God's creations"). Religion opens up questions and causes ambitions and desires along with mystery and thus many many times it has led to scientific advancement. The fact that the Catholic Church accepts evolution and places emphasis on scientific advancement is enough to answer your question.
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And yet at the same time we have [url=http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/09/creationist-science-texas-textbook-review-evolution-climate-change]this,[/url] [url=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/06/paul-broun-evolution-big-bang_n_1944808.html]this,[/url] and [url=http://www.gallup.com/poll/27682/onethird-americans-believe-bible-literally-true.aspx]this.[/url] Won't deny that in the past the Church was responsible for pushing the boundary of knowledge and art but as of late the Church doesn't seem to be doing much and radical elements, seemingly unpoliced by the establishment, are seeking to undermine scientific progress on a whole.
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Those people are not Catholic, the Church cannot be blamed for those events.
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I think it's more of a cultural problem along with the product of traditionalists too afraid (or uneducated) to move on with what is accepted. Pope Francis in my opinion has done an amazing job at modernizing the Church more and understanding today's society and being accepting though. I think other religious people see science as a challenge to their beliefs rather than incorporating it into their religion (like Catholicism does)
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way to understand the point
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Edited by Butters: 9/16/2013 8:10:32 AMOP's point was brutally slaughtered by Turkey. We aren't cavemen, everything isn't black and white. It's not either use the scientific method or you can't ever. We use faith in more things than religion and those are accepted.
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Faith is inherently unscientific. I also think you're combining "faith" with "confidence" in whether or not something will happen/exists/etc. Not everyone has blind faith in something - most of us have a reason for thinking something, which is usually based on prior knowledge and such. That isn't faith.
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Faith in a God doesn't mean you can't be scientific. That's just stupid. And saying blind faith is dumb as well, as that is redundant phrasing to you while means that I have no backing of my faith. You just lack an open mind.
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I lack an open mind because I don't believe in something that has no evidence of existence?
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I meant it is not being open minded by saying that faith is blind. If it was blind then it wouldn't be faith but then hope. A lot of us don't lack thinking and believe what our parents tell us to.
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But faith *is* blind. It's not based in fact or backed by evidence. If it were, it wouldn't be faith.
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To you my faith is blind. To me it is full belief in God which I base off my life, perceptions, and experiences.
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What experiences of yours support the existence of god?
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Too many too name, some I forget. My dad's cancer, kairos (a one-time retreat where we go for a week and question our belief or lack of belief and find how we really feel and open to others about personal struggles in our lives and open up on emotional things), and numerous other things. What experiences of yours supports your outstanding confirmation that no God exists?
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[quote]My dad's cancer[/quote]That he got cancer, or that he survived cancer? Either way, there's tons of science and medicine behind it, and directly works against the existence of a benevolent god.
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Edited by Butters: 9/16/2013 11:58:33 PMHe survived it and it's gone, and I don't see how the science and medicine involved disprove God. He isn't a magic doctor who selectively heals random people, he gave us free will and difficulties for a reason. It's all personal perspective on scenarios, I can imagine I have put more thought into my life and beliefs in one year than you have in your entire life. And again I ask, what experiences compel you to insist that God isn't real.
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So he didn't see a doctor or have chemo?
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He did go through all of that. However, you wouldn't know what it was like dealing with all that and how the experience could possibly be more positive on my faith.
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None of that supports the existence of god. It supports effective study and practice of medicine.
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I never said his healing was from God, it was clearly from science and medicine. I said the experience and all that happened strengthened my faith.
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You don't think it's odd that a benevolent, all-powerful, all-loving being with the power to create and destroy whatever he wants let your dad get cancer?
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Why would he pick and choose who gets to benefit or gets a better treatment. We face difficulties to help us grow and become better individuals, with divine intervention then free will is not true and our lives aren't based on how we guide them and live them. I wrote a two page single spaced paper on this whole thing already for my Meditation class, I'd rather not go into it again.
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Edited by Mr Shojo Rising: 9/17/2013 12:36:20 AMI'm not talking about the treatment, I'm talking about why he let your dad get cancer to begin with. Why does cancer even exist in the world? Assuming the premises that god is perfect, all-powerful, and benevolent are true, creating/letting cancer to exist in the world goes against each one of those claims. If god purposefully created cancer, he is not benevolent. If god does not have the ability to remove cancer, he is not all-powerful. If god did not purposefully create cancer, he is neither all-powerful nor perfect.
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>Creates the universe and our planet >Allows us to develop into our free-willed species >Allows the world to develop around us >Should just jump in and remove cancer despite it being a part of life What's the point of removing cancer, that would mean for one intervening with our lives, two would mean he might as well remove anything that could harm us, and three would mean that we might as well shouldn't have free will since we can't handle life situations. If my dad had died then I still would have faith in God, looking at negatives only negatively causes you no personal gain. The times of your life where you experience the biggest personal growth is in uncomfortable, stressful, or hard times. God created free will and decision making because he is benevolent. He allows us to live our lives on our own and to grow because he is benevolent. He allows us opportunities to grow because he is benevolent. Why would he remove cancer and show his power when that defeats the purpose of a life of struggles and growing? Half of the shit you're spewing seems to be based on creationism.
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[quote]It's not either use the scientific method or you can't ever.[/quote] No, but it nevertheless has fundamentally different epistemological underpinnings. [quote]We use faith in more things than religion and those are accepted.[/quote]Not by reasonable people.
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So when you make friends or get a girlfriend you go through the scientific method to see if you like them and trust them?
