Seriously! I had never completed the raid so I was desperate to find any group. The only group I found were awful at actually damaging the enemies and oracles. So they decided we should attempt the knock-off trick. Then when that didn't work, The group leader wanted us all to kill ourselves so Atheon would focus solely on him. It was fine the first ten times, After that he started getting upset because he was dying so he yells at the fireteam saying "You guys aren't being TEAM PLAYERS, You need to kill yourselves faster and stop wasting my time" Eventually the ass wipe quit in frustration without a word, we stayed in the vault and brought in a backup random, He convinced us to back out and attempt Hard Mode. Many of our group had never completed the raid fully so we were skeptical. But this person was more patient, and not expecting a flawless victory, And it turned out that many of our group completed the raid for the first time EVER! and it was also on HARD. I personally got the Helm, Sparrow, Epilogue first time! It really just goes to show that no matter how many exploits or anything is in the game, If you don't have good team work and patience for failures then you're gonna have a bad time no matter what. I don't blame people for using the Knock Off trick. They are underpowered and feel less than useful, so they want to become useful again so they glitch, they don't do it to personally hurt anyone or devalue your gear, they just want to not be looked down on by people and want to have a purpose in the game they play, No body wants to be the guardian at the tower holding a cardboard sign saying "WILL RAID FOR GEAR", begging people to help them, and feeling like a burden on people who quite frankly put in a little work and were incredibly lucky on a slot machine pull. Nobody is wrong for playing the game anyway that is available, without actually going into the data and making MODS. But it is being abused by elitist OCD assholes who like to rub level 30 in everyones faces! and tell you theres no way for you to complete a given challenge because you aren't like them! Now that is a really annoying problem!