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originally posted in:Secular Sevens
8/13/2013 1:29:29 PM
40
I'll be a Christian (again) when the churches are taxed, student debt is forgiven, higher education is nationalized, and prayer to the Christian deity is demonstrated to actually produce results.
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If you expect prayer to produce anything then you are mistaken. It's not a wish box, it's an opportunity to have an inner reflection and conversation with God. If you don't know what I mean, then you were either taught how to pray wrong or really haven't tried.
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Edited by dr0cx: 8/13/2013 9:39:05 PMMatthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. Jesus disagrees with your interpretation (i.e. mental gymnastics) of justifying the fact that prayer is the same as doing nothing.
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I don't think you've ever took a Scriptures class because you don't seem to understand those verses. Almost all of them are talking about how if you have faith and put your hardest into something then you can accomplish what you believed to be impossible. It's basically Nike's slogan of "Just Do It". The ones actually about prayer like the first are saying that when you pray you are knocking on God's door and he'll open it for you since you seek him and you can speak with him just like you wanted. Prayer is an inner conversation with God in which you reflect and speak to him. You probably think that praying is just thinking in your head "I pray for this, I pray that this happens, I pray for this person" when really you should be speaking to God "Dear God, I know that I haven't prayed very much but I'm hoping to find the strength to commit to praying more often and talking to you. I had a very fun experience with my friends today and it's a blessing to have such loyal people who are there for me and I'm going to do my best to be good back to them...etc." You're supposed to have a conversation with God and reflect and have dialogue. It's not a wish box of any way.
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It is very telling that one must take a "scriptures course" in order to really understand what the Bible says. If you must go through the exhausting task of convincing yourself the Bible says what you want it to say, that you are denying yourself the opportunity to see that it is rubbish.
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It was a Freshman required religion course at my Jesuit private high school, and it's because a lot of people take the Bible too literal and we learned the history behind the authors of many of the books of the Old Testament and the New Testament. I believe because of this I have a better and more sensical religious view of the Scriptures. I can read through the crap like the laws in the Old Testament.
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[quote]I can read through the crap like the laws in the Old Testament.[/quote] But it's the word of God. How can you call the word of God crap?
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Because it wasn't the word of God. It was written by a Deuteronomist (book of Deuteronomy) who noticed that King Solomon was not taking life seriously (he was partying it up and living his life with few values) so the Deuteronomist wrote a bunch of laws (popular 'Jewish' laws at the time) and said they were the word of God so that King Solomon would see that he needs to get his shit together or else he's going to hell. It also was for the people as they went downhill in their principles just like their King. So basically those laws about gays going to hell and stuff were not true. The only word of God is the Commandments and even Jesus said that the one thing that matters the most is "love thy neighbor as you love yourself" which pretty much just means lvie a life with good values. Traditionalists pick and choose the old laws because they aren't fans of change in society. Clearly.
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Wait does the same apply to leviticus and it's crazy laws? How many other books were just written by men? Do you have a source. Sorry for the necrobump but your post intrigued me.
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Edited by dr0cx: 8/14/2013 3:32:04 AMChristians need to get together and come to a consensus about what in the bible is the actual word of god and what isn't. [quote][b]Matthew 5:17-18[/b] [b]17[/b] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [b]18[/b] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.[/quote] [quote][b]2 Timothy 3 16-17[/b] [b]16[/b] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [b]17[/b] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.[/quote] [quote][b]John 10 13[/b] [b]35[/b] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; [/quote] It's rather clear that the Old Testament is the word of God, in its entirety.
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Edited by Forever Berg: 8/14/2013 5:26:54 AMJesus broke so many laws from the Old Testament and constantly told wrong the Pharisees whom followed the laws word for word. There are many different sects of Christianity, I am Catholic. I know the background of the writers of the Old Testament and many just threw in a bunch of laws that were modern at the time. And look it up "The Law" isn't referring to the laws in the Old Testament.
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Edited by dr0cx: 8/14/2013 5:31:46 AMIt's been looked up, but what is ultimately being demonstrated are the contradictions in the Bible. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com
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Half of those things have literally nothing to do with religion, and one of them is tyranny (taxing churches).
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Of course they have nothing to do with religion, they are cynically included here to illustrate that it is highly unlikely that I will be made to believe a lie. And no, taxing churches is not tyranny.
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It is tyranny. You don't see any theists advocating for taxing churches, it's only atheists that hate religion so much that anything that hurts religion is good and acceptable to them.
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Edited by dr0cx: 8/14/2013 2:13:39 PMThat's not an argument, it's an accusation. You claim taxation of churches would be tyranny, so prove it. All you've given me so far is opinion. Exempting churches from taxation is a violation of the establishment clause. [quote][b]Amendment I[/b] [u]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion[/u], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[/quote] Exempting religious organizations from taxation IS an establishment of religion. The "free exercise thereof" means that Congress will not prevent you from exercising your religion. Free does not mean "without taxation". It also is counter-intuitive for religious organizations to be "tax exempt" because that requires a higher degree of government oversight than the alternative. [url=http://www.idealist.org/info/Nonprofits/Basics4]Non profits are subject to taxation[/url], yet none is claiming tyranny. [url=http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=fi&page=cragun_32_4]71 billion a year[/url], that is what religious tax exemption is costing the American tax-payer. This would resolve some fiscal issues, be invested in education, or take out [url=http://www.policymic.com/articles/46915/graduation-2013-massive-student-loan-debt-stifles-innovation-and-creativity]7% of our student loan debt[/url].
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How is taxing churches different from taxing other businesses? [spoiler]Yes, a church [i]is[/i] a business.[/spoiler]
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Because we have a right to the free practice of religion, and taxing a Church infringes upon that right. And a Church is not a business, excluding some cults.
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'Free' there means without infringement on the basis of it being religious, not without cost or consequence.
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Define it however you like, it's still tyrannical and immoral to tax religions.
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You have a nasty habit of being refuted, then proceeding to argue the exact same refuted claims.
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It's the only way his belief can be preserved.
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There is no Christianity tax, And there is no assembly tax. There should, however, be property tax, Revenue tax(8¢ for each US dollar) And other taxes businesses must pay.
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It is, by definition, not tyrannical. You probably only think it's 'immoral' because you want people to be religious, though.
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Please explain how it is not tyrannical to steal money from non-profit organizations while also infringing on the right to free practice of religion. You can say whatever you want, but I know you only want the Church to be taxed because it hurts religion.
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Taxation is theft huh? That's a nice libertarian line of bullshit you've appropriated there. Either don't ignore the things I'm saying, like you always do, or don't say anything at all.
