Well that's the problem .. tell me any of those are game that have bother pve on the same scale as destiny and has pvp on the scale as destiny you can't find one. All the ones you've named only focus on PVP. I'm not deflecting anything, I'm just looking at this from perspective, because as much as we want it having class based PVP sounds broken ass hell.How would a max health titan be affected by a health regenerating warlock with guns thrown in the mixture that need there own balancing. We scream and shout yet we want ttk to be .4 seconds but how would the player base feel that you can't touch and Hunter because the mobility will be out this world and a titen surviving 2 rockets because he has max health? How well do you think the player base will take to that. When will you point at the players as the ones that don't know what we want?. It's been said time and time again what's they want destiny to play like yet we need to accommodate for dads that can only play 2 hours a week .. when no other game does that. Bungie has a vision we just don't want to accept it or don't like it.