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7/12/2018 2:22:16 PM
17
Giant hole in some people's argument about Teamshooting and TTK
And that hole's name is Hypocrisy. Allow me to elaborate.
In a conversation in a [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/246906880?sort=0&page=0&path=1]TTK thread[/url] the other day the usual things came up:
Supposed benefits of lower TTK including better 1v2+ moments which led to a teamshooting conversation.
Firstly let me explain how lower TTK doesn't help 1v2+ engagements.
Although TTK can include abilities it is most widely associated with Weapon kill times.
Weapon TTK by itself mainly only means anything in a 1v1.
Making everything equal; Player (gun)skill, weapon damage, line of sight, etc...
A 1v2 with those parameters the "1" is [u]always[/u] going to lose in a straight out gunfight.
What gives the "1" a chance and creates those moments people want is [u]thumbskill[/u]. Movement, map awareness, abilities. TTK has nothing to do with those therefore has nothing to do with overcoming a 1v2+. People don't talk about Gunskill with these moments. They talk about everything they did to survive and take people out. Most times with a 1HK weapon.
Lowering TTK does not 'help' gunskill so much that it will change these engagements.
The exception is when the skill gap of the '1' and '2' is so wide that it's essentially a curb stomp.
Then in another part of the thread larger map design was brought up claiming it would [u]solve[/u] teamshooting.
So I made the statement: "[b]Larger maps will encourage flanking. Which is also teamshooting.
Is flanking somehow a more acceptable form of teamshooting?[/b]"
And the answer I got was: "[b]If the whole team flanks then no, but then they're still walking as a group rather than covering more ground so the end result will still be the same[/b]."
Me: " [b]That's kind of hypocritical though. Either it's teamshooting or it's not. How can their be OK ways and not OK ways[/b]."
Person: "[b]If one person flanks then it's not teamshooting. If the majority of the team is, then it's teamshooting[/b]."
Wait what? Sooo one kind of teamshooting is ok and another isn't? Riiiiight.
So I offered this:
"[b]Think of a giant V formation. 1 person at the point and 2 at the tips spread out. What's the difference when both of them shoot the 1 person together vs if they were closer together or clumped? The answer is nothing[/b]."
You can't conveniently define teamshooting as the [u]whole[/u] team and leave flanking alone.
People just want 1v2+ engagements to be easier NOT more viable. These moments can and do happen in D2 it's just harder. I imagine after September when shotguns are more available we'll see more 'moments'. But again TTK doesn't matter with a shotgun. However, if the TTK is lowered it will only hurt the shotgun rusher.
This brings to light the hypocrisy and selfishness of this whole debate IMO.
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Edited by NYC_InfamousNick: 7/13/2018 12:14:30 AMI'm gonna poke holes in your hole-poking. In your head, you see teamshotting and flanking as the same because you view the end result as a team shooting targets in unison. However, flanking is a strategy that works well with this idea, but does not [b]require[/b] every single member of the strategy to be in the same place, allowing for losses with a net-win. Hypothetical situation to elaborate: [b]Emperor's Respite[/b]: A lane-centric map with routes available along the far sides of the map for potential flanks on unaware opponents. Team A flanks Team B by sending 1 person around either outer lane, while Team B stays together in a group on point B, arguably the most important flag of this map. Team B does not notice, and Team A commit to distracting with gunfire while the flanker gets in position. In this case, if any member of team A dies to facilitate the flank of team B, the flanker still has the element of surprise as an inherent advantage. [i]Current TTK[/i] would allow for Team B to have more than ample time to turn and react to the flanker, making their move a net-loss for Team A. [i]Lower TTK[/i] would allow the flanker to get 1-2 kills before Team B has time to react, and the remnants of Team A rush in during the confusion to strike, with higher odds of success. [i]Current TTK[/i] encourages [b]deathball[/b], because in a 1v2 situation, the 1 will rarely kill either of the 2. And if they do, it results in a tie for both teams until one team decides to add more than the 2 minimum players to the [b]deathball[/b]. The more players available per team, the more can join the deathball, until the potential for a 1v6 becomes possible. This continues until the team that sticks together the most wins or is defeated by superior mechanics from the opposing side (very rarely).
