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7/12/2018 2:22:16 PM
17
Giant hole in some people's argument about Teamshooting and TTK
And that hole's name is Hypocrisy. Allow me to elaborate.
In a conversation in a [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/246906880?sort=0&page=0&path=1]TTK thread[/url] the other day the usual things came up:
Supposed benefits of lower TTK including better 1v2+ moments which led to a teamshooting conversation.
Firstly let me explain how lower TTK doesn't help 1v2+ engagements.
Although TTK can include abilities it is most widely associated with Weapon kill times.
Weapon TTK by itself mainly only means anything in a 1v1.
Making everything equal; Player (gun)skill, weapon damage, line of sight, etc...
A 1v2 with those parameters the "1" is [u]always[/u] going to lose in a straight out gunfight.
What gives the "1" a chance and creates those moments people want is [u]thumbskill[/u]. Movement, map awareness, abilities. TTK has nothing to do with those therefore has nothing to do with overcoming a 1v2+. People don't talk about Gunskill with these moments. They talk about everything they did to survive and take people out. Most times with a 1HK weapon.
Lowering TTK does not 'help' gunskill so much that it will change these engagements.
The exception is when the skill gap of the '1' and '2' is so wide that it's essentially a curb stomp.
Then in another part of the thread larger map design was brought up claiming it would [u]solve[/u] teamshooting.
So I made the statement: "[b]Larger maps will encourage flanking. Which is also teamshooting.
Is flanking somehow a more acceptable form of teamshooting?[/b]"
And the answer I got was: "[b]If the whole team flanks then no, but then they're still walking as a group rather than covering more ground so the end result will still be the same[/b]."
Me: " [b]That's kind of hypocritical though. Either it's teamshooting or it's not. How can their be OK ways and not OK ways[/b]."
Person: "[b]If one person flanks then it's not teamshooting. If the majority of the team is, then it's teamshooting[/b]."
Wait what? Sooo one kind of teamshooting is ok and another isn't? Riiiiight.
So I offered this:
"[b]Think of a giant V formation. 1 person at the point and 2 at the tips spread out. What's the difference when both of them shoot the 1 person together vs if they were closer together or clumped? The answer is nothing[/b]."
You can't conveniently define teamshooting as the [u]whole[/u] team and leave flanking alone.
People just want 1v2+ engagements to be easier NOT more viable. These moments can and do happen in D2 it's just harder. I imagine after September when shotguns are more available we'll see more 'moments'. But again TTK doesn't matter with a shotgun. However, if the TTK is lowered it will only hurt the shotgun rusher.
This brings to light the hypocrisy and selfishness of this whole debate IMO.
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24 RepliesPeople don't want 1v2s to be easier. They want them to have outcomes determined by skill....not just numerical superiority. Bringing more guns to fight in a closed fishbowl is not really a skill and not really a very interesting way to play in the eyes of most players. Because of the lower TTK, special weapons, faster health regeneration, and more powerful abiltiies. Skilled players (in terms of both mind skill and thumbskill) could take on multiple players. By simply outgunning them with a primary (better accuracy)...or by making better DECISIONS than their opponent. On my PS4 there is video of me winning a 1v4 in an Iron Banner match in D1. It was a poorly executed team push where they came at me piece-meal rather than as a cohesive unit. The first two rounded the corner. I killed both of them because of the faster TTK and faster health regeneration. I put the first guy down before the second guy could put fire on me....and because of the faster fight and faster health regen, I was able to out-duel the second guy as well. The third guy came around the corner so fast that I was still weak, and didn't even have time to reload my primary. So tagged him with a fusion grenade. Dead. The fourth guy came around the corner. I'm out of grenades and primary is still empty. I take my sniper rifle and put a hip-fired round into his chest, and then melee him for the kill. That's the kind of "Hero Moment" that is the product of knowing the game well...and CHAINING together GOOD decisions could produce in Destiny 1. Moments that allowed for skill expression and sense of player power. THAT PLAY WOULD SIMPLY BE IMPOSSIBLE IN DESTINY 2...AND THAT'S WHY PEOPLE DON'T FIND ITS PVP ENJOYABLE. Odds are in Destiny 2, that entire sequence would have just resulted in a kill-trade. I would have outdueled the frist guy. But because of the longer TTK and the slower health regen, I would have been easy clean up for the second guy. Either because he would have been able to put fire on me before I could put the first guy down....or because the first guy would have left me in such a weakened state that winning the second gun fight would have been impossible. Even if by some miracle I won the 1v2...I would have had to run away and hide. Because of the nerfing to grenades, and removal of special ammo from the game....I WOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT WITH NO WAY TO QUICKLY KILL THE THIRD PLAYER....NEVER MIND THE FOURTH PLAYER....UNLESS I EITHER HAD MY SUPER UP, OR POWER AMMO AVAILABLE. So----because of Bungie's heavy handedness---play has been rigidly funneled into a mold of every gunfight basically being decided in favor of which ever side brings the most guns. So wind up with a game that is dull, frustrating and repetitive (not in a good way.)
