And that hole's name is Hypocrisy. Allow me to elaborate. In a conversation in a [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/246906880?sort=0&page=0&path=1]TTK thread[/url] the other day the usual things came up: Supposed benefits of lower TTK including better 1v2+ moments which led to a teamshooting conversation. Firstly let me explain how lower TTK doesn't help 1v2+ engagements. Although TTK can include abilities it is most widely associated with Weapon kill times. Weapon TTK by itself mainly only means anything in a 1v1. Making everything equal; Player (gun)skill, weapon damage, line of sight, etc... A 1v2 with those parameters the "1" is [u]always[/u] going to lose in a straight out gunfight. What gives the "1" a chance and creates those moments people want is [u]thumbskill[/u]. Movement, map awareness, abilities. TTK has nothing to do with those therefore has nothing to do with overcoming a 1v2+. People don't talk about Gunskill with these moments. They talk about everything they did to survive and take people out. Most times with a 1HK weapon. Lowering TTK does not 'help' gunskill so much that it will change these engagements. The exception is when the skill gap of the '1' and '2' is so wide that it's essentially a curb stomp. Then in another part of the thread larger map design was brought up claiming it would [u]solve[/u] teamshooting. So I made the statement: "[b]Larger maps will encourage flanking. Which is also teamshooting. Is flanking somehow a more acceptable form of teamshooting?[/b]" And the answer I got was: "[b]If the whole team flanks then no, but then they're still walking as a group rather than covering more ground so the end result will still be the same[/b]." Me: " [b]That's kind of hypocritical though. Either it's teamshooting or it's not. How can their be OK ways and not OK ways[/b]." Person: "[b]If one person flanks then it's not teamshooting. If the majority of the team is, then it's teamshooting[/b]." Wait what? Sooo one kind of teamshooting is ok and another isn't? Riiiiight. So I offered this: "[b]Think of a giant V formation. 1 person at the point and 2 at the tips spread out. What's the difference when both of them shoot the 1 person together vs if they were closer together or clumped? The answer is nothing[/b]." You can't conveniently define teamshooting as the [u]whole[/u] team and leave flanking alone. People just want 1v2+ engagements to be easier NOT more viable. These moments can and do happen in D2 it's just harder. I imagine after September when shotguns are more available we'll see more 'moments'. But again TTK doesn't matter with a shotgun. However, if the TTK is lowered it will only hurt the shotgun rusher. This brings to light the hypocrisy and selfishness of this whole debate IMO.